Category: Podcast

Imagine being able to improve your trial practice by utilizing DIY focus groups – well, that’s exactly what our guest, Clint Schumacher, has been doing. As an attorney specializing in eminent domain cases, Clint shares his fascinating journey of implementing focus groups to enhance his practice, and how Zoom has become an essential tool in facilitating them. We also take a deep dive into recruitment strategies, discussing the importance of finding the right participants and sharing the tips and tricks Clint has learned along the way.

When it comes to condemnation cases, people’s emotional reactions are often at the forefront. Clint and I discuss the complexities of these cases, the inherent bias against the government taking property, and how to gauge the emotional value of a particular property case in order to better communicate with the jury. We also explore the scaling question, which measures how much people care about the case, as well as the importance of communicating facts clearly in focus groups.

Setting up a virtual focus group may seem daunting, but we cover everything you need to know, from the geographic area to be sampled to the recruitment process and the electronic confidentiality form used. We also discuss the challenges of finding participants in rural areas and how Clint and his team have been successful in using Facebook ads and Google forms for recruitment. Finally, we touch on the challenges of virtual focus groups, the strategies needed to handle them, and the undeniable importance of focus groups for trial lawyers. Don’t miss this engaging and informative conversation!

In this episode, you will hear:

• DIY focus groups for trial lawyers
• Measuring emotional engagement in focus groups
• Virtual focus group process and challenges
• Managing remote meeting disruptions
• DIY focus groups for lawyers

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Supporting Resources:

My interview on the Eminent Domain Podcast – https://www.eminentdomainpodcast.com/118-witness-preparation/

Clint Schumacher

DAWSON & SODD, PLLC

8333 Douglas Avenue #380

Dallas, Texas 75225

Email:  clint@dawsonsodd.com 

Phone:  214-373-8181

Fax:  214-217-4230

Licensed in Texas and Oklahoma

The Eminent Domain Podcast – http://www.eminentdomainpodcast.com/ 

 

Episode Credits:

If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.

Episode Transcript:

Elizabeth Larrick:

Hi there, Elizabeth here. I wanted to pop in before our episode begins to introduce our very wonderful guest, Clint Schumacher. Clint practices in the eminent domain area. Specifically, he helps individuals and companies who are having problems with [00:01:00] the government taking their property. So Clint has been doing this really specialized work for the past 20 years.

He has his own podcast. If you were interested called the eminent domain podcast, Clint reached out to me about focus groups. He started his own focus groups and had some questions and I was happy to help him. And then I said, Hey, why don’t you come on the podcast? So I hope you enjoy this interview with Clint.

Hello and welcome back to the podcast. My name is Elizabeth Larrick. I’m your host for Trial Lawyer Prep and this is a podcast dedicated to lawyers preparing for trial or preparing cases better to get better results. We generally like to talk about focus groups, and so I’ve brought a guest on here who has started his own DIY focus groups, which I know I encourage people to do.

If you’ve been tuning in here lately, the past couple episodes we have really been trying to talk about focus groups, setting them up. I heard from my recruiter, we had a replay about like when to do focus groups, six good times. So I hope this is helpful, but I really wanted to bring Clint [00:02:00] Schumacher on because he has started his own DIY focus groups.

And I thought it would be great to bring him on to talk about it and see how it’s helping his practice. Hello and welcome to the 

Clint Schumacher: Well, Elizabeth, thank you. Thanks for having me join. I have been a avid listener to your podcast. They’ve been extremely helpful to me. So hopefully I can pass something along to your audience that may be helpful to them.

Elizabeth Larrick: I appreciate that. Now, as you all probably heard in the intro, Clint has his own podcast. It deals with property, which was one of my worst classes in law school. So I can’t quite say that I can help with that at all. But I know that you are here to give some good advice and some sound feedback on doing your own focus groups.

But Let’s get started from the very jump. What even got you interested in doing focus groups? How does that mesh? 

Clint Schumacher: I do have a really specific practice niche. We represent property owners that are having their property taken by the government condemnation or imminent domain cases. And so early in my career, I had some excellent Mentors [00:03:00] who, when the case was right, encouraged using a jury consultant and have had a lot of experience working with jury consultants in the past and have done focus groups and mock trials with jury consultants.

But Elizabeth, as you and your audience know, that can be very expensive and not every case warrants that expenditure. And so I have seen the value of it, but have often shied away from it in all, but the largest cases. Because of the expense associated with it, then during the pandemic, you know, everybody’s life changed a little bit.

And as I started networking and listening to really personal injury lawyers who had very good practices, I listened to them talk about how they were doing their own focus groups. And. That you could do it a lot more economically and get tremendous feedback. And then as the country started figuring out how to use zoom and lawyers started to [00:04:00] incorporate using zoom in their focus groups or a similar tool, Microsoft teams, whatever, into their focus groups and the added.

Convenience the additional shaving off of cost. I was intrigued and I figured out this is really powerful. You get a lot out of it. And if I can figure out how to do it at a price point, that makes sense for cases that I might have and be able to do multiple of them, then wow, that could be really impactful to the.

Practice and really helpful to the clients. And so as we, and my team are starting to figure out how to do that, we’ve actually found your podcast and listen to some of the tips that you had for doing it yourself and they have been enormously helpful. I think we, and my team reached out to you even, and you’re very helpful to give us some specific tips and that’s been very helpful to us.

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, we reached out about recruiting and that’s probably one of the number one questions that I always get, which is like, how do you find these folks? Always happy to help. And I’m excited to hear that. I think a lot of people learning zoom in the pandemic [00:05:00] was already a challenge. That was already new for lawyers.

So then. Learning the second layer of doing focus groups online virtually is a whole nother one. So how do you feel like you’re doing? How do you feel like the team’s doing as far as putting on the focus groups? 

Clint Schumacher: So definitely a learning curve. As you said, I think recruiting is probably the most intimidating part of it.

Figuring out how do we find people that are qualified and helpful. We started. Really do and do it yourself, I would say a year ago, and we’ve gotten better as the year goes at figuring out, okay, what works, what doesn’t work, how can we get the right people in? And I think we’re obviously we’re still continuing to learn, but we’re really starting to hit our stride.

And we try to do at least one a month. I know there’s probably people that do more, but one a month seems about right for us. And we’re starting to get it figured out. It’s not as hard as it may seem. 

Elizabeth Larrick: It can be a little scary. I can remember my first one. We had three people 

Clint Schumacher: understand. 

Elizabeth Larrick: But we did a short one.

We just did two hours, I want to say. [00:06:00] And it was like, okay, that felt a little painful because you got to get through. It’s not just, okay, get them in there. Like it’s navigating the technology and keeping people engaged and keeping the flow of conversation going as well. So you’re setting up a system, but also you’ve got to learn moderating and putting stuff together too.

So how is, as far as. Do you normally do the moderating or do somebody else in your office do it? Or how do you guys split up that work? 

Clint Schumacher: So when I was coming up watching jury consultants do it, the jury consultant would do it. So that was the model that I was used to when I first started trying to do it self focus groups, I was doing it in tandem with another lawyer here in town.

I practice in Dallas, and there was another lawyer I was having this conversation with. He’s, yeah, we’ve been doing these for a while. I would love to moderate yours. You can come participate in mine. And so he moderated ours. For a bit, we’ve tried it with kind of another, there’s another, I would say, jury consultant that works remotely that we’ve had moderate one [00:07:00] recently, but I’ve gotten to the point where I feel like it’s best if I moderate them because I know what questions I want to ask.

And I can hear what the. Focus group is saying and direct questions into things that I know are going to tie into the case. The obvious downside to doing that is remaining neutral. And I don’t always do that perfectly, but I’ve gotten to where I’m most comfortable just moderating them myself. And I know that I can get it.

If something comes up in the focus group, that’s unexpected. I can adjust a lot more easily than if there’s another moderator that’s involved. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, I would say when I was talking to another friend of mine about focus groups and one of the gems of doing focus groups consistently and. Even if you are just listening, right?

Being moderating helps, but you get into a really good habit of taking bad news. Because you’re inevitably going to get, like, you, and you get to where that fight, that, that real, that fight, that defensiveness [00:08:00] that comes up, that urge to convince, it just goes down and goes to a point where you can listen, stay curious, stay curious.

And not get completely, Oh, I want to, I want to convince this person, but yeah, you get used to hearing bad stuff every time. And I’ll 

Clint Schumacher: tell you the last time I did a Vordire and forgive me for all your non Texas residents, but Vordire is how we say it here. So forgive me if I am not sounding, that doesn’t sound correct.

I noticed that I was a lot less, I’m going to say inflamed. I’m not sure if that’s the right word, but when that juror is giving you something that you know is not going to be good for your case, I think we probably all feel our temperature start to rise and the anxiety start to rise. And I noticed the last four dire I did, I was a lot Better at keeping that feeling at bay.

And I think it was because I had moderated some groups before then. And as you say, you get used to hearing the bad news. You’re not taking it personally. And you learn, gosh, when you’re doing the board, are you that that’s gold? If somebody is [00:09:00] going to tell you they don’t like your case, that’s gold. And not being able to get overly passionate and to remain dispassionate, to be able to hear with them, deal with that, figure out who else feels the same way, that was a big help.

Elizabeth Larrick: Absolutely. It’s a very good skill to learn because in litigation, you’re always going to hear the bad news from the other side and sometimes it can be legit, but you’re such an advocate. So I always think focus groups help you prepare for hearing bad news, being able to listen to it. Stay curious. You don’t have to take it like you said, don’t take it personally.

But then when jury selection comes, it’s like, Oh, cool. I’ve heard this before. Oh, cool. Another one of those people. Cool. Weird. Tell me a little more about that. Like you said, 

Clint Schumacher: do you, do you moderate your own groups? 

Elizabeth Larrick: Oh yeah. Oh definitely. 

Clint Schumacher: Okay. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, and I, of course, it’s been several years and I do several months, but yeah, so it just got to where it was just like, oh, okay, okay.

You know, like I hear bad stuff all the time, and what I always strived for when I started [00:10:00] was just staying curious and also. You got to nail down that poker face. You’ve got to nail down that. Okay. 

Clint Schumacher: Oh 

Elizabeth Larrick: yeah. Okay. And then you just kind of like, okay. You know what I mean? And it’s, you start to, okay. And you can always tell somebody who, and again.

I’m just saying, throwing this out there. If you’re having this issue, just so you know, this is kind of where it’s coming from is I’ll have people who come in and I’ll set a focus group and people will come use my space or we’ll do the virtual focus group and the followup that always gives the little cringes, what if you heard, and you’re like, Oh, like your bias immediately comes out.

So it’s just a skill to learn. And I think it really makes you. Such a more well rounded lawyer just in practice and just probably in life to hear like, Of course people are gonna disagree with you and do you really need to try and convince them of your But tell me a little bit about, let’s get back to yours.

So how, tell me about [00:11:00] how has focus groups or how have focus groups helped your practice? in particular. 

Clint Schumacher: So probably not anything that’s earth shattering. But gosh, what I’m going to say is not earth shattering. The information we get sometimes is, but it helps me see things that I’m blind to. Right. So I inevitably almost every time they ask questions or think about things that I had not ever focused on or thought were important.

And so that’s always a big takeaway to hear their feedback on that subject. But then a lot of times, if there’s a key. Issue in the case or two or three key issues in the case to get their feedback, not only on how they feel about that, which is obviously important, but if someone were to present evidence about that at trial, who would you expect to talk about it?

In other words, Is this going to be a fact, is this going to come out of a fact witness or is this going to come out of an expert witness? And what is their expectation about that in what we do, which is very heavily expert [00:12:00] driven, that’s been a really helpful thing to hear that, Hey, that’s something that really our client or whoever the fact witnesses needs to cover as opposed to having our expert evaluation person talk about that.

So that’s been a big piece of it too. 

Elizabeth Larrick: I would assume, and again, this is my assumption because I don’t know any, that a lot of what you’re trying to understand is what do people even know about condemnation and what are their kind of attitudes about it, and have you found any kind of universal assumptions people are making?

Clint Schumacher: Absolutely. So there is generally a bias against the government taking property, and There are a fair number of people in the population that don’t think that’s even allowed or permitted. So they’re surprised to find out that can even happen. But then inevitably, one of the things that we always try to gauge in our focus group is how passionately do they feel about it in this particular circumstance.

And so if you’re taking property from a family and that land has been in the family for four [00:13:00] generations, you can imagine people. They have a sense of emotion that’s tied to that, and it’s very different from, say, a commercial piece of property that someone has owned for 10 years and their business is on it, or they rent it out to someone else.

Those can elicit different sets of feelings, and so one of the things that we or I say, should say I, I kind of subscribe to the reptile theory even in our property cases, and inevitably if we can communicate with the jury at an emotional level. That’s going to help us and one of the things I’ve got to gauge in every case is how emotionally connected does this group feel to this set of facts in this particular piece of property.

And so that’s always helpful to us to see, do we have a case that really drives that or is this one that they’re like, eh, it’s not a big deal. Are 

Elizabeth Larrick: you scaling that or are you? Doing a word association with that, give us a little bit more. And I’m happy to share how I gauge emotional, the emotional value or the emotional engagement, if you will, with folks [00:14:00] group, 

Clint Schumacher: actually, I really want to hear your feedback about that.

Cause I don’t know that I have a good system to do that. It’s really, I feel right now it’s just my field, like how involved are they? So how much feedback are they giving me? And we normally will do a two hour focus group and we’ll have two different cases. And you can tell they’re a lot more emotionally connected to one than to another.

But I don’t know that it’s systemized. And so if there’s a way to do that, I am all ears. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. I did not create this by the way, to totally did not create this. It’s just a scaling question on a scale of one to 10. How much do you care about what happened here? 

Clint Schumacher: Oh, that’s a good idea. Yeah, that’s a good idea.

Elizabeth Larrick: And you can always follow up with people. I love doing it online or doing it virtually with zoom and having a chat, having them chat it to you, and then just saying. Hey, Ralph, you put nine. What does that nine mean to you? And there, here comes a little more gold coming in there. Now it also helps you really decipher.

Occasionally some people will say, just what happened, this person was just so sympathetic. [00:15:00] Yeah, that’s not always going to push the boulder, right? We need to, we really wanted them to be impassioned about what the government is taking from people, what the defendant’s action was. So it’s helpful, but yeah.

And I do you care your Carol meter on a scale of one to 10 generally helps. Decipher and you can just do a follow up. What does that nine mean to you? What does the two mean to you? But like you said, a lot of times people will just have heated, very heated reactions, or you can always check the words people are using as well.

Clint Schumacher: So where, that’s a really good idea. Where in your focus group do you do that? 

Elizabeth Larrick: At the end. 

Clint Schumacher: At the end, okay. Mm-Hmm? . 

Elizabeth Larrick: It’s generally the last question I ask. 

Clint Schumacher: Okay. That’s a great idea. 

Elizabeth Larrick: After they have everything, right? You’ve got nothing else to give them or no other questions. And how much do you care what, what happened here?

And you can tweak it. I don’t, this was given to me when I learned focus groups and I’m sometimes of the, I may not make something better. Okay. This may be good. Okay. You don’t have to add [00:16:00] to it. I always tell people like, you don’t need to create everything on our own. Yeah. You need to create a focus group system that works for your office.

But there are some questions people want to, you know, why would I put my own twist on this? I’m like, why? Another thing that we get from doing so many focus groups is how to clearly communicate. Because the way that we communicate things can get so confusing to them. And so it’s really, focus groups help you, you give it to them and they’ll give it back to you in a much clearer way.

Generally, every time versus what the way you’re describing a fact pattern or how something happened. So, yeah. 

Clint Schumacher: How much time do you say for that last question? How much time do you need to, 

Elizabeth Larrick: Sometimes we’re running out of time. That’s why I love it’s a scaling question. Just throw it out there. Blink reaction, put it in the chat for me.

Or if we’re live in person, I just go around. I say, I’m going to ask every person individually and then just go around the room and popcorn it. And if we have time, somebody is a one. And do I really need to follow up with the one? I’ll follow up with an eight or a seven or a nine. [00:17:00] Something that I really want to figure out.

Why was it a nine for that person? 

Clint Schumacher: Interesting. Okay. See, I’m learning stuff. This is good. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Some people are super passionate about their case. Most people are, right? You’re building it. You’re creating it. You believe these people. Your heart and soul is in what we do. Most of the time, I say most of the time, sometimes it’s not, and you want to help everybody else is just as passionate about it as you are, and sometimes they’re not.

And you kind of want to know that before you start, like you said, getting those experts in there and pushing more money into that case, expensive column that people care about what’s happening here. 

Clint Schumacher: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Okay, so let’s get down to the nitty gritty here because I know there’s a lot of folks who listen who haven’t tried virtual focus groups.

And so let’s talk a little bit about your system. Kind of. Pieces of it, how you guys like to do it and set it up. 

Clint Schumacher: Sure. I think you, you had a recent episode where you have a remote person that helps you. [00:18:00] And I would start there. My paralegal does it because she’s got the capacity to do it and she enjoys it.

But having somebody to help do all that backend work, I think is absolutely critical, unless you just are blessed with. More time than I have, and you know, we’ve kind of decided in our practices all over the state, and so we’ve got to be able to make it work in different jurisdictions. And sometimes because of the nature of our work, we might be in a very rural jurisdiction.

And so we’ve got to decide, can we sample inside that county without? Running the risk of ruining a potential jury pool. And so we start with figuring out, okay, where are we going to draw people from? What’s the geographic area that we need to draw from? Can we sample inside the County or do we need to hit surrounding counties?

And if it’s surrounding counties, can we match the demographics of the County that we’re in? So we go through that process and then she really starts recruiting. And our process right now has principally been in Facebook ads. We do a little bit of. Craigslist, but probably we’ve had the most success doing Facebook ads.

And I think we’re [00:19:00] continually trying to get better at doing that. I don’t think we’re far as long as you are with regard to your Facebook page for your jury consulting business. And that’s probably something ultimately we would. Like to get to just because it’s a, it seems to me to have the effect of having a common anchoring point that you can bring people in, but we’re mostly using Facebook ads.

And then she has a Google form that we can use pretty much for every case that helps populate the information from the various consultants or various participants. And as you have pointed out multiple times, one of the challenges is to make sure you’re really getting somebody from the jurisdiction that you want to pull them from.

And we have figured out a few helpful questions to let people that maybe are not in the right jurisdiction. So that we don’t have them included on the panel. And so that’s, that’s largely the process that we’re using. Although, as I say, we’re continuing to tweak it and hopefully continue to get better at drawing people in.

And the other thing that we don’t have, you’ve got a great advantage, I think, just because you’ve been doing it longer and you’ve got [00:20:00] more participants. And so we’re still at the point where we’re. At the genesis of not having a huge group of people that we’ve worked with in the past, we don’t have a lot of repeat participants yet, but obviously my hope is, as we do this more, we’ll have people that we can go back to and use every twice a year, three times a year is probably not too much.

So we’re still working on that. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. Yeah. So do you guys do an electronic confidentiality form? 

Clint Schumacher: Yes. Yeah. So, yes. So she’s got an Adobe form that people can assign that we use. And as I think you’ve suggested, I think we’ve do it just exactly like you guys were talking about on the show the other day, your kind of entry into the zoom is you sending that form back the morning of you send the form back, we send you the zoom link and then we’re good to go.

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. Yep. Yep. It’s all building in the hurdles. I always feel like it helps your people are going to be there. Cause that’s always my fears. Two people are going to show up to talk to me. It’s a long [00:21:00] conversation. 

Clint Schumacher: And I think my guess is that anybody that does this has probably had that situation. And I think we had a panel or we had a focus group is in the last couple that we’ve done, where we had three people, we were having trouble drawing, we’re in a small county, we’re having trouble drawing.

She told me at the outset, she’s like, I got five people. Two of them are really, I’m not sure they’re going to show. And so we had three and you know what, Elizabeth, even with those three that I got a lot out of that, cause we got to get really deep with what those three people thought. And so it probably wasn’t as statistically valid, but.

Because we had that small number, I got feedback at a deeper level. And so I really got a lot out of that, even though we didn’t have very many people. So it’s not, it wasn’t the end of the world. Yeah. 

Elizabeth Larrick: It’s, and it’s not. And I think that if you end up with three folks who want to talk to you, you’re good.

If you end up with three that. We’re the folks that don’t talk very much. It’s 

Clint Schumacher: brutal. [00:22:00] No, you’re correct. These were three talkie folks. So that helped a lot. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. And it’s, have you had the situation where you’ve had to let someone go yet out of a group? 

Clint Schumacher: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a learning moment. So yeah, the person who won’t turn their video on or the person who gets in and you figure out they don’t know how to speak English and we needed to, we had to put something or some.

Guardrails in place that helped us tell them, Hey, here’s our expectation. We expect you to have your video on. If you don’t, we’re going to boot you off. We’re not going to pay you. So yeah, that was, yeah, we learned the hard way on that. 

Elizabeth Larrick: We expect you to, we’re doing a zoom focus group. You’re we’re going to need to see you, but some people just, they don’t, you got to just line it out there every chance you get, and then we’ve just gotten to where it’s like, and that’s the other thing too, I think.

If you don’t have that talking to everybody out there listening, you have to have a way to say it to where you’re being polite and [00:23:00] it’s okay, but you’re kicking them out. Yeah. You don’t want to disturb anybody else. You don’t want to become like the taskmaster because then people won’t want to share who are left.

They’d be like, wait a second. I don’t, I don’t, that wasn’t nice. But I’ve had it one time where this person was just. I mean, off the wall answers, they’re making people uncomfortable. And so I just had to like, politely kick them out of the meeting, and just paid them for their time, but, and then just moved on.

But yeah, it’s a challenge sometimes. 

Clint Schumacher: So my paralegal will sit in on these and she’ll handle, not the person who’s rude and out of sorts, right? That, that one’s probably on me, but if you’ve got somebody whose camera’s not on or whatever, she handles that. Is that how you do that or how do you approach that?

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. So she’ll start the meeting or we’ll both be there. We both start the meeting and then we have kind of a 30 minute check in period where we got check the IDs and then we check the technology. And the goal is to get all of that done in that. 30 minutes [00:24:00] before. And so if she’s struggling with somebody and because I’m generally there at work, like technology wise, and we just can’t get it to work, then I’ll come on and say, Hey, I can see it’s not working.

Can we just reschedule you? I apologize. We got to have you. And we have all the backup, right? We need to see you. So blah, blah, blah, whatever may be. And then generally people are like, okay, I’m sorry. I’m like, Hey, no big deal. But I generally come in as the second, like reinforcer of that. So that it’s. Like people understand it, but yeah, we had, we, and then, and the fun thing is what this is when you know, you’re going to have a good focus group.

It’s like somebody gets on and like, they’re having a glitch. Let’s say it’s their video. Or we had this poor person who had flipped his video. So he was upside down and we were, I couldn’t keep a straight face because he was upside down and I’m just like, Oh my gosh. And another participant like put in the chat, like, Hey, here’s how you fix that.

And I was like, okay, we’re going to have a good focus group. People are trying to help each other out. So we did get a fix, but it was like. [00:25:00] Everybody wants to help and figure it out. So it’s, we’ve definitely had hurdles. She generally tries to go first go around, but I’ll come in second and see. And if there’s something specific, for example, we have to ask people, hey, we can’t really see you, can you turn a light on?

Or, looks like that you’re on a cell phone, do you have any other device? You’re not gonna be able to see the presentation. It’s gonna be too small. Oh gosh, we’re gonna have to get you rescheduled. It’s really important to see what we have to show you. If they can’t get it worked out, then, then we’re just gonna reschedule.

Clint Schumacher: That makes sense. Yeah, that’s good advice. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. And we just, we’ve just gotten to where, I think I’ve just about run into, I know, Knock on some wood here. I’m sure there’s probably something else that’s going to come out there and impress me, but I’ve had people do some very interesting things with the camera on.

I’m just like, Oh, baby, turn your camera off for that. But 

Clint Schumacher: yeah, I can’t say that we’ve had that. So, yeah. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. Just [00:26:00] get, just in case, 

Clint Schumacher: just get ready. Okay. 

Elizabeth Larrick: That’s right. That’s right. All right. So what advice would you give some folks out there who are thinking about it? They’re on the cusp. Most people, we know it’s important, but we know it’s this expensive thing.

So we can’t necessarily hire someone to do our focus groups. So what would you, what advice would you give folks are on the fence about getting started doing their own focus groups? 

Clint Schumacher: That’s a great question. I think, and you prefaced a part of this, but I think it’s the place you have to start, which is, I have never left a focus group, including the ones we’ve done ourselves, and go, that time was not extremely well used.

And because we always learn something about our case, it’s some of the best, it’s some of the most valuable time I spend on a case. And it’s hard to put. A price tag on that place that takes your case from a C case to a B plus case, it’s hard [00:27:00] to figure out what that is worth. And it’s worth a tremendous amount.

And so the amount that we spend, I know, is coming back to us and more importantly, our clients many times over. And so I think you start with, if you have something that’s that helpful to your case, okay, now you just got to figure, now you got to find a way, right? How can I figure out? How to do this. And that was finally the point that pushed us over the top, which is I knew it was important.

I knew it could be valuable, but it just seemed too big a hurdle to get over. And once you thought, okay, there’s from a time standpoint, I can figure out how to make this make sense and be efficient. And from a money standpoint, I can absolutely figure out how to make this work and be efficient and then just get in there and not be afraid.

To screw it up and just know, Hey, these first couple are probably going to be screwed up and that’s fine. And just the sense of learning and continuing to get better. That’s ultimately where we got to and where we’re going to. And like I say, it’s, uh, it’s not as hard. It’s like most things in life, probably.

It’s not [00:28:00] as hard as it seems is that first step’s the hardest one. And once you take the first step and you go, okay, I’m going, I’m going to do this. Now I just got to figure it out. There are resources out there. Yours being very helpful to me that have helped us get down that path. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, so not telling us your numbers, how are we talking about with our value proposition here, right?

Our return on investment here, we talk about five times, sometimes 10 times, like how would you equate that one hour focus group that expense you may have to the case as far as value and return of investment? 

Clint Schumacher: Yeah, so we try, I’m not sure I can answer that question specifically. So I’ll give you, I’ll give you a, I’ll give you a story.

So we tried a case in February. And it was one of the first cases we had focus grouped ourselves. We did a zoom focus group and then two weeks before trial we did an in person focus group. And we did both of those were do it yourself. We found the people did the whole vineyards. And my, the jury came back and gave us [00:29:00] 880, 000, I’m sorry, jury came back and gave us 680, 000, which with pre judgment interest turned into like 880, 000.

I really think that There are probably 3 key things that we learned in the course of those 2 focus groups that took that case from a 350, 000 jury verdict to a 660, 000 jury verdict. And so, I don’t know, maybe we spent 5, 000 doing those 2 groups, probably not even that much, but let’s be honest.

conservative. And you know, whatever that math is, that’s what I think happened on that particular case. Maybe not all the cases have that same effect, but I think I would guess we’re seeing 10 to 15 to 20 to 25 times return on what we’re putting in to the focus groups on our cases. 

Elizabeth Larrick: That’s awesome. That’s what you want.

And I think You nailed it with your example, which is, and that’s what I hear all the time from people, even if they just run one focus group, they’re like, we heard this one thing that turned [00:30:00] Our case into a million dollar case, right? And it was this one thing. We didn’t even know about good friend of mine example.

They had a propane gas leak in a house and they never even thought about clearing the air that no one was a smoker in the house. And it’s the 1st in the folks group said, and they said, oh, my gosh, thank goodness. We never would even said a word about that. And the jury would have gone back and assume just that 1 like you said, those 3 nuggets.

Doubled the case back. 

Clint Schumacher: Yeah. And in this case, there was one fact that scared us that we thought was potentially the outcome determinative facts. It was a bad fact for us. And in both of those focus groups, not a single person cared about it. Could not care less, which completely stunned us. But that helped us then figure out how to try the case and we realized we don’t have to be afraid of this fact.

We don’t have to make a big deal of this fact. We need to explain it and then the jury is good with it. And the ultimate jury felt the same way. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, that’s awesome. And I think again, having some [00:31:00] confidence to know I don’t have to spend so much time on this. It was my worry only, not their worry. Awesome.

I, Clint, I really appreciate it. Is there anything else, any other resources you would suggest for folks who are listening, who are thinking about doing focus groups, any other resources that you would suggest that focus. Lawyers go check out. 

Clint Schumacher: Yeah, sure. The other place that we’ve learned a lot is a lawyer in Las Vegas named Sean Claggett.

Sean does DIY focus groups too. They do, I think he does one every Friday in his office and he’s got a lot that he’s written about and has put out there for public consumption about how they do it and what they do, and that’s been very helpful to us as well. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Sean reptile and edger as well. Yeah. I think they have a whole company as well.

They do. They have a pretty, they have a pretty cool space too. I’ve gotten to go to that space before. 

Clint Schumacher: Oh, I haven’t seen that. You’re a step ahead of me. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. This is well before the pandemic, so many moons ago for sure. Awesome. I think no matter where you get the information, please just start looking. I think that’s step number one is take a look [00:32:00] around.

It’s not nearly as complicated. And I think the beauty of it is so many people are used to zoom. It’s not a foreign concept for participants who are out there trying to find some extra money, gas money or whatever, maybe. 

Clint Schumacher: Absolutely. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Clint, thank you so much for joining the podcast. I hope that you enjoyed your time here with us.

Clint Schumacher: Elizabeth, I did. It was a great pleasure to get to visit with you. And like I say, we owe you a tremendous debt of gratitude for what you put out there publicly and then what you’ve helped us with when we’ve emailed you here over the last several months. And so thank you very much. And I hope I was able to return that favor just slightly by sharing something with your audience.

Elizabeth Larrick: Absolutely. It was a pleasure to have you. And I hope that everybody else enjoyed Clint. We’re going to put his. Contact information, the show notes. If you have questions for him about his DIY focus group system, or if you have an imminent domain case, am I saying that right? Condemnation case. 

Clint Schumacher: You got it.

Elizabeth Larrick: Definitely puts all that information there for you to contact Flint for anything. Thank [00:33:00] you all so much for listening. If you enjoyed the podcast, please like and review it on your favorite podcast platform. So other folks can find this as well. Until next time. Thank you.

Elevate your understanding of deposition preparation with a unique focus on Spanish-speaking clients in our latest episode. We promise you’ll gain valuable insights on the role of translators in this process, offering your clients a deeper layer of comfort and preparation. With firsthand experience from the field, we share how employing a translator for role play during deposition prep can drastically improve your client’s understanding and readiness, setting them up for success.

Venture further into the world of legal translation as we highlight the importance of hiring certified court translators. We unpick the ethical code they adhere to, nuances of regional dialects, and the potential risks of miscommunication. We also address the significant challenge of translation delays and suggest ways to keep this process as concise as possible. By the end of this episode, you’ll be equipped with a new perspective and practical strategies to effectively utilize translators in your deposition prep process, ensuring no stone is left unturned.

In this episode, you will hear:

• How a translator can help Spanish-speaking clients prepare for deposition
• The importance of hiring certified court translators
• Ensuring confidentiality and comfort of clients
• Understanding the importance of brevity to avoid delays

Follow and Review:

We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.

Supporting Resources:

If you have questions or a particularly challenging client preparation, email Elizabeth directly for assistance: elizabeth@larricklawfirm.com.

Episode Credits:

If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.

Episode Transcript:

Elizabeth Larrick: [00:00:00] Welcome to Trial Lawyer Prep. What if you could hang out with trial lawyers and jury consultants, ask them about connecting with clients and juries more effectively, then take strategies, tactics, and insights to increase your success? Each week, Elizabeth Larrick takes an in depth look at how to regain touch with the everyday world, understand the emotional burden of your clients and juries, and use focus groups in this process.

Elizabeth is an experienced trial lawyer, consultant, and founder of Larrick Law Firm in Austin, Texas. Her goal is to help you connect with juries and clients in order to improve your abilities in the courtroom. Now, here’s Elizabeth. Hello and welcome back to the podcast, trial lawyer prep. I’m your host, Elizabeth Larrick, and I’m glad you’re here.

This is episode 99 and I’m celebrating already before a hundred because it has been a journey and I’m so glad that you have been here with me. If you’re new to the [00:01:00] podcast, welcome. This is a podcast dedicated to lawyers preparing cases better, getting ready for trial. We talk about Preparing clients. We talk about preparing for trial focus groups and a few little tidbits along the way.

I like to have guests and join us and next episode, which is a hundred. I’m going to do something totally different, but I want to talk a little bit about how we’re going to do the podcast going forward. And I’m going to change a few things up, test some things out and you guys can let me know whether you like it or not.

But my hope is that to give. More context to what we’re talking about. So today’s episode, we’re going to talk about deposition preparation specifically for clients who do not have English as their first language and using a translator in preparation. So this episode is for folks who have clients who don’t have English as their first language.

And in my experience, most of the folks that I have or have [00:02:00] worked with are Spanish to English. Translation, but this is not limited to that. I mean, I think what we’re going to talk about as far as the problem and the translator helping with this goes to any translator, any kind of language that we are working with, mainly because there are so many different variations of Spanish and best example I can give you is, of course, I know book Spanish, but when I go to speak with somebody who is a native speaker from Mexico, like we’re kind of lost.

Now, let me just. I don’t speak it. I can, I can understand what they’re saying enough to know that we are lost in translation. So what I want to dig into today is how to take your preparation for these particular clients to a whole nother level and to really gear them up for using a translator in the deposition.[00:03:00] 

So I always suggest to use a translator. Or hire a translator, somebody not in your office to come in and help during deposition preparation. And particularly if you’re going to, when you do the role play session, definitely get that translator in there to help in that session, because there’s so much that has to be learned extra on our clients in this situation, because they’re having to be very patient for our translator.

They’re having to be very patient, listening and waiting for their turn. You know, if there’s objections and understanding all those things, which is normal for a client, but then knowing they have to kind of wait for the translator and most people, most clients that I have dealt with know enough English to know what’s happening and going on.

They’re just much more comfortable. They want to testify in Spanish because that’s what they understand very well. So, I’m working with some folks right now, and we’re using a translator during preparation, not just during the role play. [00:04:00] And it has been such an eye opening experience because of the vast difference between the translator’s version.

of Spanish to English and then his version. And it’s not that either one is wrong, but it has been such a education for me in the words that we may say in a question and how they get translated and then given over. And then there’s this huge block and it’s a car wreck case. And so we’re talking about, you know, navigating the road and passing cars and getting around cars and Of course, there’s a thousand ways to say it in English, but there’s only so many verbs in Spanish.

And so that’s why, like, we just kind of got lost in translation. So it’s been so helpful for him to kind of understand, oh, like this. It’s the word that I use here is, is so important. And they were also, you know, kind of lost with this [00:05:00] translation of easy versus better. And so he kept saying easy when he was intending to say better and she was just translating it that way again, you know, nothing wrong with the way she was translating it, but that’s just the way, you know, from the book Spanish, that’s what it says.

So, I know that when we use translators in deposition prep, it gives them a whole nother layer of what to expect and how to teach themselves to be patient, to wait. But also, what I tell them is like, this is really. This is helpful because you are going to have a lot more space to understand no, you’re going to have to work with the translator, somebody you have no idea with, but that also sometimes when we have this.

Translation chain, a lot of the times translators don’t translate tone. Some do. I don’t know if you’ve ever had that experience where you’re sitting in a deposition and [00:06:00] opposing counsels asking your client question and the translator is actually translating the tone, which doesn’t need to be done because we all understand tone.

We don’t really, as kids, we know what a bad tone is, a good tone is, so we don’t really need the translator to, to do the tone, but you know, hopefully. You get the impression, the tone of the question and it’s translated and hopefully that gets a little bit minimized right by the time they get the question to them.

But it’s been so helpful to have a translator as somebody outside of your office because there’s always a comfort level with speaking with somebody in your office or even speaking with you. If you, if you speak in Spanish or another language with your clients, they’re, they’re Is a whole other layer of preparation that you can give them by bringing in a stranger and having them go through that experience.

And this is another reason why we always say, bring in a different lawyer or bring in a new face to do that role play no matter [00:07:00] what, because they need that experience of a complete stranger asking them questions, you know, hammering them on the details and giving them the answers. You know, what happens in a deposition, a real life experience, and it bringing in a translator significantly helps because they’re going to realize, Oh, wow, I’m not only do I have to answer this question, but I’ve got this other person who’s translating who may get it wrong.

And I need to work really hard to make sure I understand that question the way that they’re doing it. with the words they’re using. And so that’s my little tidbit for today. You know, I’ve always suggested, I’ve done this myself in cases and I’ve, I’ve, anytime we’ve used a translator in preparation, I’m always glad that we do.

And in this particular instance, the, why I’m talking about it with you today is we did, we had a translator for more sessions and it just has been So much more helpful to get that help and assistance and know, Oh, here’s this challenge with like talking about [00:08:00] what happened in the crash because of all these different verbs.

And let’s get, what is the truth? What is it that you want to say so that we make sure it’s, it’s, it’s translated correctly in English. And the concern that I had, of course, because not having had somebody there for such an extended amount of time was, well, what is, what is the ethical concern? Like, does this break confidentiality?

And so we talked with a translator with quite a bit about it before we felt comfortable and she said, no, no, that’s, that’s fine. You know, that’s an ethical code that we have, like as an official, you know, court certified interpreter translator, like it’s, it’s confidential. We’re not breaking confidentiality by, by translating, being here and translating.

So if you had that concern pop up like I did, she assured us, nope, that’s, you know, she would never be able to reveal anything, you know, she’s translator and that’s kind of the code of ethics they have for a translator. certified court certified interpreter. So be thinking of that. If you’re going to go get someone and hire someone, you want to go basically get, get some money.

[00:09:00] from a certified or court list, not just maybe the other person who speaks Spanish down, down the hallway in your office, or, you know, some, somebody not, I’m not gonna say off the street, but somebody else that’s like in your home with a friend or family that, you know, you, you really want to get somebody who’s going to be stuck with this very, and I call it book Spanish because that’s really what it is.

And when I’m using Spanish as the example, but there are same thing with, I mean, people who, Speak Russian. There are so many different flavors of that. And when you kind of understand the flavor that your client is speaking or that your deponent will be speaking, it’s going to benefit you tremendously to also learn what are some of those differences.

In that, in that specific dialect, because then you can ask questions in that way to make sure you’re hitting those verbs that you want, we’re hitting that translation that you want. So it’s [00:10:00] helpful always to do this in your clients with, with deposition prep, but always be keeping that in mind when you are going to go to post somebody where they’re from regionally and how that may change the questions when you’re going through a translator.

And yeah. Again, English, we’ve got a thousand ways to say one different phrase. So, you know, keep that in mind when you’re asking questions. And I’ll just add one other little story that I had come up again with the translators running a focus group, getting this case ready for trial. And we’re running a clip from the deposition and the client is a Spanish speaker and there’s translator and opposing counsels asking these questions.

And it’s about speed, you know, how, how fast were you going and, you know, he testifies he’s going 60, 65, which ultimately we know from black box data and [00:11:00] reconstruction, like he could not have been going 60, 65. But what was interesting was we played this clip and we did some other things. And then one of the participants said, you know, That translator was using a different kind of Spanish than that speaker.

That speaker, that, he, he’s from somewhere in Central America and that translator, he wasn’t, he wasn’t translating it 100 percent correct what that guy was saying. And it was like, oh, wait a second. Like, because this whole, of course, speed thing is, It’s kind of a hang up in the case if you couldn’t tell already.

And so it was like a light bulb when I was like, Oh, wait a second. Like that is probably, there’s, there’s probably something lost in translation and that’s kind of what she was trying to say was, I don’t think that he actually was saying that. I think the way that question came off, we understood as English, but he got a different version of it and then he came back with a little bit of dialect and then it got translated with book Spanish.

[00:12:00] And, and so it was. And so it’s like, wow, I’m so glad that she mentioned that. Again, what a nice little gem from a focus group that really hadn’t been thought of, like because the case had come along and gone through, uh, you know, a different set of lawyers and then this is the trial set, right? Lawyers are going to try the case.

So super important to always be keeping that in mind when it comes to, um, uh, uh, uh, Like translating and dialect and regional stuff. And if you’ve got a deposition in your file that has a translator, like go back and look at that, go back and figure out like, you know, maybe there’s, there are definitely some places where it just doesn’t translate the same when you have got dialect versus kind of that book, you know, kind of Spanish or whatever the second language is.

All right. This is a short and sweet episode on purpose. So thank you all so much for listening. I hope that this was helpful, you know, just keep it in mind. It’s a little bit of an added expense to bring [00:13:00] someone in to translate during depo prep, but. I guarantee it will tremendously help the client and probably reduce a little bit of time and tension in the actual deposition because they’re going to have had that process and that patience that they’re going to have to build in more so than English speakers.

I know we always tell them, let’s wait so I can object. Well, my gosh, they have to sit there even longer waiting for that translation. So anyhow, keep this in mind, use it a little bit, but just think about using. Somebody else for that to help get that little edge on translating. All right. I hope this was helpful.

I can’t wait until next episode, which is a hundred and I hope that you tune in or catch it later on, on your favorite podcast platform. If you enjoy this podcast, please rate and review it wherever you are listening. And until next time, thank you so [00:14:00] much.

Ever marveled at the power of a compelling narrative on a jury? Ever wondered how those narratives are crafted? Hillary Carls, a dynamic trial lawyer, joins us in a riveting conversation about the role of focus groups in crafting winning narratives. We recount our experiences and share how these groups have altered our approach to even the most complex cases. Hillary shares her journey to becoming a trial lawyer and how focus groups steered her to victory in a challenging sexual abuse case.

The power of visual aids and focus groups in trial cases cannot be overstated. Hillary and I dive into this, sharing our insights on creating visual aids for arguments and understanding your audience. If you’re looking to refine a story and turn a complex narrative into a compelling argument, this episode is for you. Hillary reflects on how a focus group’s input was pivotal in her sexual abuse case, and together, we emphasize the necessity of focusing on causation in trial cases.

In this episode, you will hear:

• Exploring focus groups in challenging cases
• The importance of visual aids and focus groups in trial cases
• PowerPoint presentations and the “show me yours, I’ll show you mine” strategy
• Preparing mediators in advance

Follow and Review:

We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.

Supporting Resources:

Would you like to learn more about Hillary or connect with her on a case?

Email her directly at: Hillary@carlslaw.com

Episode Credits:

If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.

Episode Transcript:

Elizabeth Larrick:

Hello and welcome back to the podcast. It’s Trial Lawyer Prep with your host, Elizabeth Larrick. I am excited here today. We have a guest joining us. A good friend of mine from Bozeman, Montana, Hillary Carls is here. Hillary and I met, gosh, it’s been a couple of [00:01:00] years. I’m always excited and blessed to get to go up to Montana trial lawyers and talk at their CLE, but we met there have become friends and have done a little bit of work together.

So I thought, you know what? It’s time Hillary needs to come on the podcast. So welcome to the podcast. 

Hillary Carls: Elizabeth, thank you so much for having me on. I’m delighted to be here. It’s such an honor. 

Elizabeth Larrick: She is kicking ass up in Bozeman, y’all. We’ve done some focus groups together, so that’s what we were going to talk about here today.

She’s always working on something different and fun and exciting. Hillary, just for some background, what got you into, let’s just go back. Why are you a trial lawyer? 

Hillary Carls: I’m a trial lawyer a little bit by accident, but it was a fortunate accident, my first job. After my clerkship in back in Montana was with a firm that was doing a lot of work in court.

And so I really cut my teeth just doing a lot of criminal defense and personal injury, just some car accidents and stuff. And my practice [00:02:00] really has just evolved over the last 18, 19 years into solely plaintiffs. Civil litigation practice. And it really right about the time when I met you is when I was making the complete transition to plaintiff’s work.

And I was on the Montana trial lawyers board and really starting to get involved in kind of that focus. And it’s just blossomed from there. I will definitely say what we got in focus groups was because of the trial lawyers. I was talking with colleagues and I’m learning how they were approaching things in our, in our practice.

Friends, Sig McKenna and Justin Staren sold me on just the great work that you guys were doing with focus groups. And frankly, I walked away feeling like I was an idiot for not doing it before then. So I have some tricky cases. I do take easy cases when I get them, but most of my cases have like a tricky component and I had some in particularly tricky ones when you and I started doing focus groups together and it really just changed my whole perspective on how we can approach difficult stories and get it right.[00:03:00] 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. First of all, you’re not an idiot. Okay. Focus groups are challenging. Whenever I was practicing and going to CLEs, I would hear about it, but I didn’t really know what it was. We didn’t really get to see what they were talking about. It would just be like, Oh, we did focus groups and they told us X. And it was like, well, is it that easy?

Do they just say that? And sometimes it is that easy. Sometimes it’s not. So I appreciate you saying sometimes we just gloss over it, but it’s. Something that I think everybody should be doing, but it doesn’t mean you’re an idiot for not doing them. I may just not even know about them. So Justin and Sid, who are up in Missoula, who I have tried to get on the podcast and if they’re listening, then they know now they have to be on the podcast because you called them out.

So you had a couple of tricky cases. What kind of cases did you use for focus groups? 

Hillary Carls: So I think I, the first case. When I was thinking about coming and chatting with you, I was thinking about the first case I think you and I worked on, and it was a sexual abuse case. And generally [00:04:00] speaking, my, the allegations were I represented a fifth grader who had alleged that she was digitally penetrated by her fifth grade teacher and the police department had investigated it.

They hadn’t found any wrongdoing or that her allegations were credible. The school district had investigated it and found that there wasn’t any credible allegations. And so I knew, but there was something very credible to me about this girl and her story. And I found her credible. And, but I knew I was working against I guess good judgment and judgment of a lot of other people.

And so after I learned about this process that you guys use and focus groups, I just reached out to you and we actually did. And when I say the deep dive, I think we did, you did help me with some witness prep for depositions and then we focus grouped it. And, and so that was a really difficult case, difficult situation.

The focus group in particular though, just blew my mind in terms of how a jury or an audience could really hook on and link to my [00:05:00] client’s story and believe her, even though all the prior audiences hadn’t believed her. So it was really, it gave me a lot more confidence going in, certainly into settlement conversations and prepping for trial and all of that.

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, that was a kind of a, it’s a hard one, but I feel like we get cases like that all the time where we hear the client and it’s okay, that makes sense. But then everybody else, the police report, the employer, the other car. So it’s sometimes it’s really hard to have a lot of confidence in what the story is and tell Okay.

We tested it. These folks are humming in. Yeah. And that was a kind of a tricky case beyond just that whole like story thing. It was, I think sexual abuse cases can be a little bit difficult. And you guys also had a lot of other factors too. We’re glossing over, which was conservative area, like small towns, like what kind of mentality is going to, it’s going to show up.

And again, testing it with focus groups. I’m glad gave you some confidence. I know that. Cases since resolved luckily, but helped you learn some [00:06:00] things. I know there’s another case we did too for focus groups. And I feel like do we do that one twice? 

Hillary Carls: Are we talking about on the last one really quick? I don’t know if I ever shared this with you, but I will tell you, I think the most impactful thing about the focus group was when we recorded it and I played it for my client and they were so on her side.

That was like such a healing and validating moment to see a group of strangers hear her story and believe her. And I don’t mean to jump back to it, but it was just a different way of thinking. I mean, it wasn’t a litigation tool in that way, but in the human experience, seeing her scene, her story told.

And it was just a different way of thinking about it. And people saying, yeah, I believe her. And that’s horrible. It was just like amazing. Though. That’s 

Elizabeth Larrick: awesome. I don’t remember that. What a wonderful tool, because I know that she did not, it didn’t advance and there wasn’t a trial. And so many people get a little hung up on like their day in court.

Now. Obviously she was not hung up on that. [00:07:00] She was just hung up on not, not being felt heard and understood and that people believed her. And so good on you. What a like quick thinking on your feet thing that I think some people would have missed that moment. And when you’re so like when your client Ford.

And you’re really trying to think of how to help them. Sometimes we forget we may have a tool available and it’s not money. Okay. It’s just this other thing that we may be able to, so good on you for being creative and Hey, that’s a good use for a focus group. 

Hillary Carls: I always try and do it to your goals and help the people that we have the opportunity to work with.

The net, the other, I think we’ve done a couple of other focus groups, but the one that I’m really thinking about is the one where it’s a discrimination case, is that the one you’re thinking about? I 

Elizabeth Larrick: was going to put that one aside, but that one was super interesting too. So here, let me just give a little background for folks who are listening.

So Hillary has been such a good, like. Very open to, Hey, let’s try this. So sometimes people, it’s hard to feel [00:08:00] creative or it’s hard to be like, this is what I need. So let’s just do the focus group this way. But Hillary was like very open to being creative and let me be creative on several of her stuff.

We’ve done different styles for almost all the focus groups, especially the one that you’re talking about. We did. Witness clips in preparation for deposition. So a lot of times people want to do the witness clips after and like getting ready for trial. You want to make sure, Hey, what are people going to think and how should they be talking to the jury through their deposition?

So that one was definitely eye opening. 

Hillary Carls: And I think it gets back to kind of something you were talking about is what are the most surprising things? That you learn in focus groups or something we’ve talked about and it was like Approaching it in a creative way because you can learn you every time you have the opportunity to get feedback from an audience you just learn so much more about how to present the next time and improve upon it and whatnot and I do a lot of discrimination work it seems like these days and [00:09:00] these are nuanced conversations and so finding out about what a group of strangers thinks about these very fine lines and moments is really important, really important.

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, we got a lot of good what they expect out of this particular discrimination testimony and hey that’s what you want and what they expect. 

Hillary Carls: It just then threw me to that as a case I just tried that we focus grouped before we did the plaintiff’s opening and then a focus group on the defense’s opening on it.

And that was a really, I lost the trial and I now know what I wanted to focus group it next time when I get a new trial. 

Elizabeth Larrick: It was close y’all now don’t, Hillary’s not giving herself enough credit. Like it came down to the wire, tell them what the jury actually, what the jury verdict came back with. 

Hillary Carls: Yeah, so it was like, it’s a negligent intersection case, so it’s a tough case, but my, my client had walked 90 plus percent of the road [00:10:00] across the roadway and got hit as a pedestrian by a suburban going 45 miles an hour.

But our case was about the design of the highway. and causing this accident. And 11 to 1, the jury agreed with us that the state was negligent. 11 to 1, excuse me, 10 to 2, however, that negligence did not cause. My client’s injuries, which is a tough pill to swallow, but a 

Elizabeth Larrick: little bit, yeah, that’s when people say, Oh yeah, we won and we got a thousand dollars.

Like that’s the cringe or they gave us 1 or no dollars. 

Hillary Carls: And actually I do think it was 11 and one 11 to one on both votes. So it completely switched. After we talked to the jury or someone talked to the jury on our behalf, we found out they had gotten to damages. They had gotten past causation and one juror pulled them back and it changed the whole conversation on causation.

So we’ll see. We’re on appeal and hopefully I’ll Best focus group ever, jury trials, [00:11:00] followed by yours. 

Elizabeth Larrick: First of all, good on you for appealing it, but yeah, it’s, and good on you for talking to the jury. I know some people do, some people don’t, some jurors just won’t even talk to you at all. Sometimes it’s hard to get.

Information like that, but in those focus groups, we had done two and the nice thing about those focus groups we had done, we looked at your timelines, right? And we fashioned those one, what they wanted. There was a lot of visual aid work on how to look at this particular intersection that I think you guys did fantastic listening to the focus group and making those changes, even though it may not have been like what We as lawyers intuitively would have thought that’s what they need to see.

Hillary Carls: You know, if you haven’t had the opportunity to work with Elisabeth on a focus group, this case is a great example of just what an asset she has on it. Because this exhibit thing that we’re talking about. Is exactly it. Not only did Elizabeth put together this whole focus [00:12:00] group and lead it and guide us on how to like best present the evidence or the, our story to the focus group.

But you had such an, you really were engaged about our exhibits and helped make them better. I was like, Elizabeth is my co counselor right now. I 

Elizabeth Larrick: really love visual aids. Like I just get so excited when people, oh my gosh, if they’re doing it, And anyone who’s probably worked means, yeah, she’s going to say you want a timeline.

I get so excited about them. I have forms for them. I have templates. Like I get so excited about timelines and visual aids. And I, I use Canva a lot and just sidebar. Canva is a great resource. You can get a free account. There are so many things like cool things you can do like bar graphs and all kinds of stuff.

So if you are interested and want to just play like canvas, a good place to play, but, but yeah, I was totally into your visual aids 

Hillary Carls: because I love that. Yeah. Yeah. No, but it’s so important because again, it’s just another way. We’re all trying to win our arguments, right. Or persuade our [00:13:00] audience. And I guess when I, since we’ve gotten into focus, you’re being, uh, It’s really forced me to put aside the, recognize my own ego in my storytelling.

And just because I think the story is this way, or this is the best way to talk, communicate what happened to our clients from it. Who am I to think that I’m like, could see it the clearest. And you just learn so much from what the 10 people that you, that are more reflective of actually what people will think about this story or the facts than, and certainly me.

And my computer, 

Elizabeth Larrick: that’s just what we do. We have a lot of experience and we put it together, but I do think sometimes those focus groups just help us kind of fine tune. And a lot of times it comes down to the order and that’s where you figure out where the, Oh, That’s all of a sudden that’s the highlight now.

It’s okay. How do we use that? Or in that particular case with that visual aid, what we found out was they love the backstory, but they were getting lost in it. So then [00:14:00] that’s where our timeline came in, of course, but it really then helps solidify like all these available points of data that they, you’re engineer minded, there it is.

You’re whatever it is. It was in black and white. They could not have ignored it on that timeline, which I think. You guys did a great job putting so much focus on that timeline and the complaints and all those things that people want to see and know versus sometimes you guys had, again, great. And I said, this sounds terrible, but this is what happens when you become a plant installer.

The injuries were just darn horrific, just astronomical. She had some great visual aids for that, but it was just like, you don’t need to worry about damages because those are taking care of themselves. It’s going to be getting the hook on there and making sure that they had the ability, the knowledge and whatever kind of funky.

Montana statute you 

Hillary Carls: guys had. What’s interesting about that is talking about what different groups go. And it’s certainly the difference between an [00:15:00] hour long focus group versus a week long trial. We had picked out some of the key damages, like pictures that really show just how broken my client’s body was.

And after the week, I think one of the lessons learned in the jury trial that you’re hoping to get a new trial on is that the jury, those were seen almost too much because they did get it. They saw the damages, they knew the damages, and that was an important lesson thinking about when we go into the next time is focusing more obviously on causation a whole lot more because the damages were pretty clear.

But they were pretty gross. I think I grossed them out by it and seeing it so often. 

Elizabeth Larrick: I’ve never seen it. I like one of the injuries this guy had was like his skull completely broken half. I’ve never seen that in any case. So of course I’m like, show me the picture. You had the x ray. So it was just like, Because if you tell somebody [00:16:00] and we do a lot of visual aids and I encourage a lot of people to do, even if it’s just a graphic, just the MRI, like you’re giving them something.

But whenever I hear we show a visual of a broken knee and exactly how it broke, or this guy’s poor broken face. And I hear from from a juror. I don’t need to see that picture. I know it’s a broken bone. I’m like, you don’t give one toots about this poor person. Is everybody else? Whoa. Cause saying, oh, you broke your knee.

Oh, I broke my face. Okay. But how it happened. And like the whole thing separated, like your mind goes to a thousand other places versus just saying it. 

Hillary Carls: Cause yeah, the name of that fracture is Laforte fracture three. And you’re like, What does that tell you? Nothing. But then when you see the top and the bottom of the skull separating from each other, you’re like, that hurts my actual eyeballs right now, and my nose, and the whole thing.

And you, it makes sense why his whole face is numb and when he can’t, he bites his lips [00:17:00] and can’t breathe out of his nose and all the all the things. Yeah. But that is that’s the one it’s when it’s a that case in particular I was listening to you interview another colleague of ours Lucas Faust another Bozeman, Montana attorney Gosh, however long that goes and listening to his focus group regiment or routine.

I would say on his cases Again, so enlightening and I was like, I really got to do this more often like you got to do it early but I keep doing it and refining these themes because The difficult cases are one of the, the great cases in my view, they require finding that sweet spot and that how to best tell the story.

And on my case that I lost, I’m looking forward to my do over because I’ve certainly learned a whole lot and look forward to the challenge. 

Elizabeth Larrick: I think statistically you’re more likely to win the second trial. I always tell it to people who have new trials and that doesn’t help me, Elizabeth. I’m just.

Telling you statistically, but I was scrolling through LinkedIn the other day [00:18:00] and Keith Mitnick is in my feed and fantastic. If you’re not following Keith Mitnick on LinkedIn, you’re missing out on so much great information, but he’s talked about one of our key jobs is to find the fatal flaw in our cases and doing a focus group.

Earlier will allow you to find it earlier and fix it along the way. And so that’s why sometimes like having Lucas on to walk through, it sounded like, wow, that’s a lot of focus groups, but really lives of our cases, especially down here. A year and a half, two years, if you’ve got a COVID case, we’re talking, we’re kicked down the road, just still on making up cases from before COVID.

You got a long, you got a long life here. You’ve got time to finagle things if you get in there early. And that’s what I always encourage people to do, especially if we’re going to spend a big old hunk of money. Pile of money. 

Hillary Carls: Oh man. Cause we invest in our case, right? We, if you want to invest in an expert, okay.

50, 000 or whatever the number is. A focus group is a [00:19:00] bargain in comparison to that. It’s when we were in, we just saw each other in Missoula. I was talking with another Montana attorney then. I’m really like really intrigued by what Elizabeth was saying. Are you serious? Like it really works. What is it?

Like how much time do you invest? I go, It is seriously the best bang for your buck. It’s like you’re researching. Yeah, we can get on Westlaw and research law and find all the cases but this is researching the like human experience and Sure, you can’t perfectly replicate a focus group with a jury, but it sure is pretty good No, absolutely.

Absolutely. It’s Invaluable. And I really do. I actually, even as I’m talking here right now, I’m like, reminder, get this on the calendar. Schedule some more focus. 

Elizabeth Larrick: And I think one, one thing that, and I did it too. And I, sometimes I still phone a friend, you pick up the phone, you, or you got the monthly meeting and you say, Hey, can I run a case by you?

And that’s all good. But we live in this world. We [00:20:00] live and breathe in this world. And. I am always amazed when I’m doing focus groups at people on the outside, looking at our, looking at what we do and seeing things change. And I think one of the CLEs that I came was just, Hey, y’all, the world is a little different after COVID people got a little bit different expectations about things.

And one of the things I’m seeing in a lot of spaces in LinkedIn and on different CLEs are jurors. Don’t really care as much as you think they do. And most of them are even more angry now about being called to jury service than before. And I’ve seen that. And so it’s just, Ooh, don’t you want to know? It’s a simple question.

Hey, if you got called down the courthouse and this is something you’d listen to. Would it be a waste of your time? Yes. How come? Like, so even just having that, how do I pique their interests? Like, how do I get them not emotionally invested? Cause you can, or sometimes you can just [00:21:00] depend on what it is, but just knowing that, okay, like that funky thing or that little bitty piece, or that’s what annoys them or get rid of that.

Even if you just learned one thing, like it’s, I guarantee you, it’s going to be something that you would have done at trial. And you would have pissed somebody off and you just and you never would have known and that’s sometimes the kickers. I don’t know what happened. I’m like, oh boy, you always want to know so you can fix it for later.

Always helpful. I think naturally I’m totally biased though, because that’s what I do is focus groups. 

Hillary Carls: No, but it is. It really is. Especially the cause of civil litigation right now. If you’re not If you’re investing anything in your case, you really need to prioritize a focus group and the investment as well, because it’s, it’s good money after bad, if you don’t do it really.

And it’s the whole piece of the puzzle, two things that you were just saying. And one, Keith Miknik, I’m going to say his last name wrong. I apologize. I never get last names right. But I was just listening to him being [00:22:00] interviewed on another podcast and he, you were talking about the fatal flaw and it was, he just, This is like a focus group.

Somebody says something and it just like keys you in, but he was talking about it’s always earlier than you think it is and it’s farther back in time. And it just triggered all these cases I have that grounded them in the moment that we really had. And it was like, yes. And it was like these light bulb moments.

And that’s what the hope you get from this kind of education and these things and the whole deal. Um, I’m curious, too, what you have found in all the focus groups that you do, because in a couple of these cases that we’ve done, I’ve used them, I’ve tried to get the mediator or the settlement master to watch it as well, or talk about it, because they were to get some feedback.

I was like, really? Because we’re just a bunch of lawyers trying to guess this. And I’ll just be frank, none of the mediators talk onto it and they always clue me and tell me they’re not interested. And do you, have you heard of anyone successfully doing that?

Elizabeth Larrick: I [00:23:00] will tell you that I have not had, I will just say from my personal experience, not had great experience, but what I have learned is a lot of it is in the setup. Meaning like I have to start planting that seed with them when we set mediation that this is something that. If we’re going to, you’re going to have to watch it.

And again, people are like, well, that sounds like a condition. I’m like, it is a condition, but the other thing that I always hear or that I’ve heard from mediators, and I think John Rubin is local mediator here. And you just throw it at us. You just throw it at them and they’re not prepared. They’re it’s all over the place.

So it’s a, I think a lot of it is in the setup and. I think also, I, let’s just say from my experience, I didn’t tell them that I did it. I created a PowerPoint and then that was my opening, right? And I know that you guys don’t do, Montana doesn’t do a lot of openings, right? [00:24:00] 

Hillary Carls: It depends on the judge or the circumstance, but sure.

Yeah. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Okay. And some people are getting away from here in Texas. And that recent mediator we had on here was like, stop doing away with that. Do the openings. Like, even if it’s just 10 minutes, because this is that shot to talk, you know, that they like it. Cause they want to talk to your client. You like it.

Cause you want to talk to the decision makers. And so I did that. I had an opening and I made this soul crushing PowerPoint. This was very early on. Didn’t tell anyone I was going to do that. I just. There was no way we were settling it 

Hillary Carls: after you’re talking about openings and mediation. We don’t do that.

Sorry. I thought you were talking about trial and 

Elizabeth Larrick: mediation and with this really bold, I would say, and of course crushed any possibility of settlement, which we needed to settle the case. But has it worked before you? Is 

Hillary Carls: it? Do you think that’s an effective? I I guess step in your guys mediation process, or can it 

Elizabeth Larrick: be?

It can be. I think it 100 percent can be. I think you got to get the mediator on [00:25:00] board and you got to do the warmups and the, some of the things that I think are difficult. And I’ll just say, Texas, we got a lot of lawyers. We got a lot of mediators. Montana, a little smaller crowd, a little smaller pond, sometimes maybe harder to convince your mediators.

But I was like, from what I’ve heard and what I understand is you got to warm it up early and you got to really say this is five minutes and if you don’t like, here’s all the information I can give you. Here’s the non disclosures, here’s the names, here’s where they live. It’s not my voice. And I think if you sometimes.

And someone’s going to hear this podcast and be like, that’s not how you do it. There are lots of ways to do it, but I’m just telling you from my experience, I didn’t warm anybody up and not warming people up and getting them set up for that. And just telling you can even tell the other side, Hey, we were running focus groups and this is what we found.

And I will just tell you, I’ve done it by ambush. And that never works. [00:26:00] I did. I’m thinking of another case I did by ambush, Oh, whoopsies don’t do it by ambush because they’re not expecting it. So I think it’s all in the warmup and I think it’s also the way I’ve seen it uses it’s you show me yours. I’ll show you mine.

Hillary Carls: So that’s interesting. So when now I’m curious on this whole mediation opening and ambush idea, because you’re right, because it’s getting back to your audience. You want your audience to respond positively to what you’re suggesting and stuff. And it ambush puts up our defenses and all that. When you do, like, an opening and mediation, is the defense also watching it?

Is it mediator and defense is watching your I think, see, I think that’s actually a really interesting good idea, because you want cases get settled when both parties are a little bit nervous about what’s going to happen, and I think it’s a I could see how under ambush you get super defensive and guard up.

However, if you prepped it exactly what you’re saying and all of it, it could be really effective to be like, want to have an honest conversation [00:27:00] about resolving this case, see my best day. Here it is. 

Elizabeth Larrick: That’s right. In the most effective, and again, I, Cause I don’t have to mediate anymore, but most people that I am talking to, and we’re doing focus groups, we’re doing that, unfortunately, like it’s, we got multiple mediation situations on these larger cases.

So you’re just buckle up buttercup. Like we, but that being said, like having that, always having an expectation and knowing what you’re working for and where you’re going and what the issues are. And then just knowing I, you think this is an issue for me. I am not afraid. Why, why I’m not afraid of that.

And it’s almost having that level of preparation. Sometimes I think that scares them more because you are doing the work. You’ve got the visual aids you’ve got. And so I always. When I hear people say, we’re not, once we get past mediation, then we’ll do ABCD. And I’m like, you’re just too late. Like you should [00:28:00] be doing all of those things and we don’t want to spend it.

And then mediation, you may get more value. There’s value in doing all of these things. It’s not like it’s going to go by the wayside or be lost. 

Hillary Carls: It’s a season of mediations. It seems. So I feel like I’m a mediation all the time. And you just described so many experiences. It’s, it can be such a hit or miss experience in terms of, and I can’t, yeah.

I’m constantly thinking because of course our clients want to settle their cases. I do, I agree exactly with what you’re talking about is our best card forward and trying to leverage the best moment for them to settle their cases. We’re going to trial. You’re afraid of me. I’m prepped. I’m ready to go.

Here we go. And all this stuff. And in the last couple of weeks, I’ve probably mediated, I don’t know, four or five cases and I’ve had the spectrum of experiences. One case, they knew I was prepped and ready to go, but it was really, the parties just came to the table and we had the right kind of facts to make them nervous early on.

And I had this other one, we’re on the [00:29:00] verge of trial and they’re, everyone’s just calling each other’s bluff. And I know the defense didn’t come to the table with this at all because. They think something that I’m not afraid of at all is undermining the case. And I, so anyhow, getting back to the original question about like focus groups and like mediations.

And now my very, I’m very interested in openings for mediations because I tried to actually do it in this case where they basically told me to go fly a kite. And I was like, wow, they just couldn’t hear 

Elizabeth Larrick: it, but I probably didn’t prep it right. When you’re asking people to do something that they haven’t done.

And you’re asking people, that’s not how it’s done. That’s not true. In many other states, we have, there are openings. In mediation, it’s just one of those things sometimes where you’re just like, I can’t come in good faith unless I know you’re actually going to have a space for me and a space and space open for you too.

So it’s sometimes I feel like, because here, especially most counties in Texas, especially where we are, where [00:30:00] I am, like it’s mandatory, you don’t have a choice. So it doesn’t matter whether you come with a dollar or four. 5 million, like you got to do it. And a lot of you just, you’re jumping through a hoop and it’s, we just wasted.

And so I know a lot of colleagues who just basically say, Hey, I filed a motion that says we don’t need to go to mediation. It’s a waste of time, waste of money. And then if the defense, no, we got to do it. You got to go in front of the judge to argue about it. But it’s such a, kind of like a hoop you jump through, which is frustrating.

Hillary Carls: And so. I agree it on all I go up and down on mediation so much I there’s bright moments and bright lights where it’s really effective tool that I’m grateful for my clients were able to use, but there’s a lot of way mediation can be a soul crushing experience, which is maybe that’s why it’s probably that’s what I don’t like about it for plaintiffs is when it feels like The process is to tell them all the defenses in a way they hear defenses in [00:31:00] a different way than we do and that it beats Them up over a day to try to get them to like minimize the value that they see or whatever But it’s a human experience.

Of course, that’s we do it on both sides arguing defenses and strengths and all the other things But I would like to I know mediations do work and all the same with my take most state courts Most of Montana State court orders it. Federal court, you’ll probably get order to it. I dunno, but it’s not as mandatory.

But it is. It’s a hard, 

Elizabeth Larrick: it’s, it’s become, it didn’t always be, it wasn’t always this way. It wasn’t always where it’s just the word, but it, it is a struggle. And I think a lot of people, there are a lot of great books. There’s a couple really good books out there about it. There’s a couple good classes about it, but.

Yeah, sometimes it’s just a slog and it’s just like, but I love, here’s what I love to do about with mediation is I love to spend, even though Texas is a big state, we got a lot of mediators, we do a lot of the same mediators. So I will prepare my client for the exact speech they’re going to get with [00:32:00] the particular mediator and exactly what they’re going to say.

And the media leaves the room, the client’s like, Oh, that’s exactly what you said was going to happen. I was like, I know, isn’t it weird? And like, so they’re not like, They’re mind blown. Like that’s actually going to happen. Cause they don’t believe me initially. I’m like, yeah, they’re going to come in here and tell you that your case stinks, that you weren’t hurt.

Your bills. No, we were not going to pay the whole bill. It’s just, which they’re like, what do you mean most? And that’s what I love about focus groups. We talk about reducing bills or what do you mean reduce the bill? Like it’s the bill, like, like all of a sudden the hospital is taking a discount, but that’s my, one of my favorite things to do with mediation is just listen, this is what we’re going to do.

It’s what we’re not going to do. We have a very kind of, it’s not as in depth as depo prep, but I spend quite a bit of time doing the mediation prep, just to make sure, like you said, we don’t have the air come out of the balloon and fall out. 

Hillary Carls: Cause the longer you do this, you learn that lawyers think about things.[00:33:00] 

Not the same way that other people in day to day life think about things. And so I become more like calloused or things don’t shock me as much of the, whatever it might be. And again, getting back to preparing your audience, when you’re preparing your client for mediation, like the expectations or what they’ll hear and like the processes and stuff and it, I do give up because I obviously I’ve in the last couple of weeks I’ve been doing quite a few mediations and it is the same intro because that is what the, that the client needs to hear on the whole thing.

I do wish defendants or insurance companies would understand that they also could Approach it in a way that maybe left the plaintiff feeling a little bit more respected, they’d probably be more effective, right? Which is like vinegar. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Hands down. That’s why I’m just like, I’m not sure how you guys are missing the mark here.

All my focus groups, if they would just take responsibility and say that, yeah, they caused the wreck. What are we doing here? I’m just like, those are the scariest cases, right? Where the defendant’s really nice and [00:34:00] says, yep, I totally crashed in the back of them. But that’s, it’s, here we are talking about mediation tangent.

Sorry, I think we do mediation focus groups and stuff like that, but I just. I think again, it just really goes back to helping you set expectations. Focus groups do, especially before I go to mediation and getting that outside perspective. Cause you know what the defense perspective is. You know what the insurance carrier’s perspective is.

And it’s like, how do I get them to look at this other perspective? Like you’re ignoring this. I know you don’t run folks groups. I know you think that this is a joke that I planted all these people, but I’ll show you the bad stuff too. Like you want to see the bad stuff. I’ll show you the bad stuff, but.

It’s a conundrum. And again, I think you nailed it. If the process was just a little bit more respectful, then I think we’d get a little bit farther with mediation and don’t get me wrong. There’s some great mediators who are, who do the process beautifully. And when the other lawyer recommends that person, you’re like, Oh, okay.

Like [00:35:00] now we’re serious because this is a good mediator. And other times you mediate, you’re just like, 

Hillary Carls: there’s nothing better than an effective mediator. And there’s just some that are really master that and do a good job, really do a good job. No, they’re great. And it’s actually interesting. One of the most effective mediators, I think in Montana right now, I’ve.

I have this one defense counsel who refuses to mediate with him. And I couldn’t believe it, quite frankly, because he’s an unbelievably respected attorney. And I was like, huh, that’s because he gets cases done. You pay more than you, you are, whatever it might be. But it It’s telling on that for sure. So we’re in the dispute resolution process, right?

And ultimately the jury trials where it all, or a judge trial, whatever it is, the final way we do that. But mediations, depositions, they’re pre filing. These are all moments that we have the opportunity to resolve whatever our client’s dispute is. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. [00:36:00] 

Hillary Carls: It’s a slog. 

Elizabeth Larrick: It’s a slog. It’s a total slog. I just, I’m so like, I would still be like, thank you for being a trial lawyer because it’s a slog.

Like litigation, sometimes it’s a battleground. Thank you so much for coming on. And I’m so glad we got to have a tangent talking about mediation because I know a lot of people want to use focus groups and mediation and I wish I had a better, I wish I had a better answer. And you know what? I’m going to find a better answer because I know I’m thinking, I got a lawyer right here in my mind.

Who uses mediation, uh, who uses focus groups at mediation, and I’m going to get him on here and he’s going to tell us how to do it. Oh, I love 

Hillary Carls: that. That’s great. Cause there is, there’s really effective ways to use trial tools to continue to advance our client’s goals. So thanks for going on the tangent with me.

Elizabeth Larrick: You’re welcome. It’s always enjoyable, Hillary, to talk with you. And I’m always. Again, just like you’re doing good work. Please keep up, keep up the work in this log. 

Hillary Carls: Absolutely. Thank many. Thanks for having me on. It’s been really fun. Thanks so much. Awesome. Thanks so 

Elizabeth Larrick: much. All right. If you all [00:37:00] enjoyed this podcast, which I hope that you did, please review it on your favorite podcast platform and until next time, thank you.

When you’ve got 20 years of litigation under your belt, stepping into a new role can feel like a leap. But that’s exactly what Kiele Linroth Pace did when she founded her law firm and took on the fresh challenge of the special counsel role. She has effectively blended her considerable experience in criminal law with the less familiar world of law firm administration. Now, she’s got the freedom to carefully select the projects that inspire her most, and she’s even contemplating the idea of training others to do the same.

Hiring and delegation are two major focal points of our discussion. Kiele shares her expertise in simplifying the hiring process, primarily for law firm owners and solo practitioners. We also talk about the positive impact of having clear job descriptions, accountability, and adequate systems in place for a successful hire. We also tackle some of the common mistakes that can stunt a law firm’s growth – neglecting personal development, overlooking the importance of outside perspective, and underestimating the power of delegation. 

One of the most fascinating parts of our conversation revolves around the art of setting boundaries to reclaim time. Kiele shares her journey of learning to set boundaries, and how it has allowed her to conserve energy, enhance productivity, and lead a more balanced life. We also dive into the idea of finding work that truly sparks your passion. Kiele’s perspective is inspiring. Even within the same job, changes can be made to better align your work with your passion. 

In this episode, you will hear:

• Special counsel in law firms
• Mistakes impacting law firm growth
• Freelance services and time management for lawyers
• Setting boundaries to reclaim time
• Coaching for ideal clients

Follow and Review:

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Supporting Resources:

Would you like to learn more about Kiele and her services?

Check out her website: https://pacefirm.com/

Or connect with her on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kiele/ 

Books we talked about:

You are a Badass, Jen Sincero: https://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Badass%C2%AE-Doubting-Greatness/dp/0762447699 

You are a Badass at Making Money, Jen Sincero: https://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Badass-Making-Money/dp/0735222975 

The One Minute Manager, Ken Blanchard PhD and Spencer Johnson, MD: https://www.amazon.com/Minute-Manager-Kenneth-Blanchard-Ph-D/dp/074350917X 

The Big Leap, Gay Hendricks: https://www.amazon.com/Big-Leap-Conquer-Hidden-Level/dp/0061735361 

Episode Credits:

If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.[vc_raw_html css=”.vc_custom_1706917757750{border-radius: 10px 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Episode Transcript:

Elizabeth Larrick: Hello, and welcome back to the Trial Lawyer Podcast. I am your host, Elizabeth Larrick, and today we have a treat.

We have a guest joining us. Kiela Linroth Pace is joining us. She and I Missed each other at a happy hour, but I [00:01:00] got her information and I had to have her come speak at the capital area trial lawyers association, which she did. And I’m so grateful she did. And after that, I’ve been following her on LinkedIn and I just love all her posts.

And recently she had a little post that caught my eye and I thought, Ooh, she needs to come on the podcast and tell all us trial lawyers about what she does. So thank you so much for joining the podcast. Thank you for inviting me. I’m excited to 

Kiela Linroth Pace: be here. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. So this post about being special counsel. So first of all, they know a little bit about you because we did a little bit of a bio background, but what does that mean?

I’m totally intrigued. Tell us a little bit. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Right. It’s a new offering for me and it’s joining my two worlds, if you will, because of course I had a 20 plus year career as a litigator specifically I did domestic violence defense, which is criminal law. And of course, over the course of my business development journey, I also.

grew my solo practice into a boutique law firm. So in addition to the criminal law [00:02:00] background, especially a deep dive on domestic violence defense, there was law firm administration, building, running, directing the team, et cetera, that I did in that world. And up until recently, I thought that, I was leaving that behind to transition a shift gears into coaching, which originally started within my firm.

And then I ultimately decided that I actually wanted it to shift to a different audience. My ideal clients these days are lawyers rather than people who’ve been arrested for domestic assault. And what’s happened is I made this leap of faith. To just shut down my law firm at one point, I had been trying to run it while launching my coaching practice.

And it wasn’t really working very well for me. I know some people are successful in doing that, but I got to a point where I was like, you know what, I’m going to have to just give this my all. And so I just made that decision and started winding down my law firm. And that has been a long process that’s taken close to two years now, definitely over 18 months, somewhere in there.

And as I’ve wound down the law firm, of course, that [00:03:00] also has meant that my income is reducing because I’m very much in startup mode with my coaching practice. And even though that’s going well, now I’m at a point where I have more time. Because my caseload has shrunk. I’ve got one case left. I’m so excited.

And so congrats. Thank you. Yeah, it’s really exciting. And in the meantime, I developed myself as a speaker. I’ve been doing, in fact, that’s how you and I met. Of course, that’s been great fun, but I do need to supplement my income while I keep going. And so in thinking about, look, how do we want to do that?

Something that’s aligned, something that’s. For me, given my talents and strengths and whatnot, easy, lucrative and fun. And it still allows me a plenty of time to work on my coaching practice to both the marketing of it, the fulfillment for my existing clients and new clients and whatnot. So what came to mind, it was really an epiphany is thinking back to where I was in 2015 when I started my business development journey.

It was so hard to make the time that I needed to make to do all the things, right? So I [00:04:00] knew I needed to do things like hire and learn to hire, much less the actual implementation of it. And then there were all the things I was already doing that were necessary to provide the quality of representation that I wanted to for my clients.

And so just finding the time to actually implement. All of this new stuff. I was learning to continue doing the things before I was able to Things that legal work right before I was able to package it and deliver it to A qualified individual who I had hired or brought on whether that’s a staff member or a new vendor or whatever And so that was where the light bulb went off because it was like how awesome would it have been?

At that time, if I had some had somebody like me who was available to come in and delegate things to somebody I could trust to operate independently, someone who’s got their eye on the ball, both with regard to the quality of representation, as well as like the healthy development of a law practice. And especially if it’s moving into a small law firm.

So that was [00:05:00] it. And I’m so excited because it was like, Oh, my gosh, This is something I can do. This isn’t that would actually be a great help to some of my existing clients, future clients. And I’m happy to do this kind of work. And it really allows me to pick and choose. And I’m, I only have a small number of seats because I’m not available for a lot of time.

And it’s just me doing this work at this point. But if this goes well, this may actually be something that I train other people to come in and do and provide this type of assistance. But for now, It is just me and I have folks I’ve been talking to who are excited, but I’m just now launching it. It’s basically another startup.

Elizabeth Larrick: Awesome. And what I heard you say, what I think a lot of it will probably peak a lot of people who listen here, which is hiring, which is always a dreaded task. And I will of course, speak for myself running a law firm than doing what I do now. There’s always just so many pitfalls you can make. And so tell us a little bit more about that part of it.

As far as. That role that you take on or relieve some pressure in that area. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: It’s really going to depend on the needs, the [00:06:00] specific needs of each individual that I’m working with as to how comfortable they are with different aspects. Some people are more advanced in having hired people, having an idea of what their process is, who they want to work with and so forth.

But some people are going to be like I was. And honestly, before I started down the business development journey and Started doing business coaching. I was afraid of hiring. I had such a fear of hiring that I went for many years without hiring anybody. And when I finally realized I needed to, I actually went out and hired my husband.

I brought him in to my practice, Ben’s husband, I should say. He was a software developer, but he had a lot of strengths when it came to. It’s a law because of his family background. And so that was a good move in some ways and not so great in other ways. Cause I really didn’t know what I was doing when it came to hiring.

And even that, when you bring somebody in who’s close to you, it’s just as important that learn how to do this properly, how to be clear about what the job description is, what their role is, that sort of thing. And so what I’m talking [00:07:00] about, if somebody wants me to help them with hiring, probably the first step, and it’s going to, again, depend on where they are, how.

Pressing it is for them how overloaded and overwhelmed they are because it might start with I whatever it is that you need help with I take it off your plate first And do it myself so that I can get a good feel for what’s involved I might help you write some policies and procedures that are going to be helpful for somebody else because Ultimately, you probably want, depending on what the nature of the work is, you probably want me to peel it off, get it packaged, and then delegate it to somebody else, help you bring somebody on board.

Now that might be a direct hire employee, or it might be a vendor. For example, there are a lot of companies these days that provide a virtual assistance, including in the legal sphere. There’s some companies that focus on lawyers and being able to actually delegate well. To any of those providers, whether it’s a staff member or a vendor, that’s something I’m going to probably be better poised to do than most folks who haven’t gone down this business development journey.

So I can [00:08:00] do that. And like really any part of that process that they need help with, I can help them. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. And I would say most people. Most lawyers and solos or small firms are ready to hire right now. And they’re just not. And you know, it’s one of the biggest things that last 

Kiela Linroth Pace: year, 

Elizabeth Larrick: yeah, is people are just, and again, I get it.

We’re we, we are the business and we work on it and in it, as they always say. And I always cringe when I hear sometimes listening on podcasts or other stuff where people say, wait to hire and tell. And I’m like, no, because I did that for so long too. And just waited and just. Hire ahead, look ahead at that kind of stuff and get ready for it.

So I love that the delegating, I feel like that is such a skill. We have a skill we have to learn, especially as lawyers. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: It is, it is, and it can really be painful when you don’t know and don’t have a clue how to do it yet. And, and you do start hiring because you’re absolutely right. Sometimes you have to just get in there and do it and figure it out and [00:09:00] be prepared to make mistakes and then correct and make adjustments and whatnot.

But it can be. Challenging and problematic. When you hire somebody, you make that commitment with the idea that I’m going to be able to afford to pay this person because they’re going to take things off my plate that I’ll be able to do more lucrative things. Bring in more money. That’s true, but it can be tough to get from the point of where it’s a payout to it’s actually paying for itself if you don’t know how to delegate properly, if you don’t know, and it can cause other problems.

And it certainly did for me in my business. When I talk about or when I think about what I call team building round one, Where there were some accountability issues. There were some things that I didn’t really know how to do well. And so even though it seemed like we were doing well for a couple of years, ultimately there were some internal problems that I discovered after I had a couple of people leave.

And that’s when I’m going through and picking up the pieces and going, Oh, wow. That person who just quit without notice it’s too bad. I didn’t know what I know now about what was going on when they were 

Elizabeth Larrick: here, 

Kiela Linroth Pace: because that would have fired them. [00:10:00] 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. Or just known like they weren’t ever going to be a good fit.

From the jump, because I’ve definitely done that, 

Kiela Linroth Pace: too. 

Elizabeth Larrick: We could definitely, I feel like spend most of our time talking about that. And I only touch on that so much because I feel like. I’m always hearing on listservs and from people like, Hey, I need this associate, or I’m looking for this paralegal, or is it, and it’s what systems do you have in place?

Where are you looking for? And we, I think as business owners can get so bogged down with that, that. Cause we’re working and then we’re just like, Oh, we need to have a system or policies or, or clearly written job descriptions that it’s, Oh yeah. And that takes so much time. I’m glad to hear that as something that you are passionate about.

Kiela Linroth Pace: Yeah, I actually love systems and spreadsheets and all kinds of stuff that a lot of people hate. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, sometimes it just feels over this overwhelming burden of wait a second. I just need to solve this problem, but now you’re telling me to have these six other things in place [00:11:00] before I can solve that problem.

But there’s a method to the madness. Let me ask you, if you want to step into this place and kind of help law firm owners, what are you seeing are some of the mistakes? Again, as being a law firm owner, just watching other people or having people in your coaching program, what are the mistakes that you’re seeing people make that are really directly impacting their ability to grow their business?

Kiela Linroth Pace: It’s not one that’s intuitive. The one that I see across the board, whether we’re talking about a solo or a small law firm owner, or even on up to bigger enterprises, the biggest mistake that I see is the one that I made myself. And that is neglecting themselves and their personal development. And we talked about delegating.

They also tend to resist delegating. You know, it’s a related issue, right? You’re taking on too much. You are typically most of the people that we’re talking about long, long past when they should have been looking at a way to take some of this stuff off their plate. Now they’re at this max capacity. And the problem is that when you’re, I’m like entrepreneurialism [00:12:00] and let me back up, let’s be clear.

A lot of lawyers I think don’t know this, but running a law firm, building a law firm is an entrepreneurial activity. It’s business. It’s not really law anymore. It’s business. And the thing about entrepreneurialism is that. Like true success, at least the way that I see it and that I define it now requires resilience.

It requires creativity and these are qualities that it’s hard to develop. It’s hard to maintain. It’s hard to embody them. If you’re anxious, if you’re overworked, if you’re overwhelmed, if you’re burned out and I was no exception even after, and this is the sad part, even a couple of years into my business development journey when I was working with some really great coaches and I was being taught all these wonderful lessons.

Technical lessons, really more about, about business. I was still neglecting my personal development. And so ultimately what happened is I got stuck and I couldn’t see the problem. I couldn’t see why I couldn’t progress. I had gotten to a certain point. I had [00:13:00] built a team. I had taken out commercial leases, all these things.

My gross revenues were hugely increased over where I had started. And it wasn’t that I wasn’t taking it seriously. I was working hard to learn, to implement. And in hindsight, I can say I was working too hard. And again, that’s that point at which I was neglecting myself, you know, doing all these things and they were great things, but I was never going to get past that particular point if it didn’t stop and create some space for myself.

Take care of myself, right? Because the solutions, they actually require that your brain have the space, have the time, have the energy. Contrary to everything else I’d accomplished up to that point in my life, really, it was never going to be solved by just throwing myself at the problem by working harder and harder.

So that’s why I say it’s counterintuitive. And I think that’s the biggest mistake that most people make. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. And hands down. One of the favorite things that I always hear is what got you here, won’t get you there. And it’s exactly right. You get to a point where you can run a keep [00:14:00] ramp against the wall.

This definitely has happened to me. And then at some point, like you said, somebody comes from completely out of left field and is like, Oh, it’s that. And you’re like, Oh, 

Kiela Linroth Pace: blind spot. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Wow. And I, man, I couldn’t have spotted it. And that’s why I love having a coach, having an outside perspective of somebody being able to come in and be like, Hey, Elizabeth, it’s this thing right here.

Oh man. Okay. So stop, go address this thing. That’s this limiting belief, this story you keep telling yourself, this thing that’s sabotaging what’s going on in day life. And you can’t figure it out. You like you said, you’re working harder at the problem and you’re not getting anywhere. Absolutely. A hundred percent preaching the choir on that personal development.

And I also appreciate you sharing, like you were doing all the things business wise, right. Doing all the things. And it was successful. Like you said, there’s always going to be some place that you get stopped. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Yeah. 

Elizabeth Larrick: And having somebody else look at it always is really helpful. [00:15:00] And it sounds like that’s like, you want to bring in that outside perspective to help other law firms be able to see, Oh, Hey, here, you think this is the problem?

No, here is the actual bottleneck. So let’s figure this out. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Yeah, that’s what I do as a coach and a consultant. That’s part of what I do as a coach and consultant. And that’s different work really. The freelance services, the special counsel role is a little bit different because it’s more about the implementation, right?

So as a coach, when I’m working with somebody and I might help them come up with an idea, or I might just get them on the right path so that they can come up with the idea that they need, but it’s up to them to implement it. I’m not going to actually do the work. They do the work. This is, in fact, this is something I like to tell people, respective clients when we’re talking about the possibility of working together.

Um, one of the things I want to make clear to them is one of the big differences between law and coaching is that in law, The lawyer has a lot of control over the end result and we can’t make the facts, [00:16:00] we can’t make the law and certainly our clients can do a lot to either help or hinder us in getting to the best possible result.

But in coaching, it’s actually the client who has to do the heavy lifting. Right. The, the coach is a guide, merely a guide, but the client is really the one that has to be responsible. The coach cannot do it for them. And so one of the differences here when it comes to special counsel, and this is a very, like I said, I have a limited amount of time and hours that I’m willing to put into this, but I can actually help them implement and that’s the difference because that was the thing when I was I have been working with coaches that I, I really w wanted, wished that I had somebody who knew what’s what, who could actually help me do that stuff, do the work.

And that’s the difference here. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Gotcha. And that makes so much sense. And I, I appreciate you clarifying that because that’s. We want implementation, even sometimes when we have a coach, it’s like picking up that amazing book that everybody loves. Let’s take Atomic Habits. That’s an amazing book, but it does nothing for you if you’re not going to [00:17:00] actually implement what it says in there.

Kiela Linroth Pace: First, you have to actually study it, not just read it, right? You can read a book and then put it back on your shelf and go on with your merry life and think, that was great. But it’s not going to get you anywhere. You first, you have to study it. And then you also have to do the exercises, whatever it is that they’re recommending that you do.

If you don’t actually do that part, the difference between reading and studying, like I have a whole little lesson for clients. 

Elizabeth Larrick: It’s such a huge deal. And I will say one of my favorite apps that I’ve gotten into is called Readwise. And I love a paper book, but I love Readwise because it’s, In wherever, whatever you’re reading on Kindle or wherever you can highlight, it goes into read wise.

And then every day you do a little review and it’s your little quotes. And I’m like, Oh yeah, I forgot about that. So it’s so helpful because just those little gentle reminders, but I try to have for myself again to know, Hey, I studied this. Don’t forget about it, but. Well, let’s keep going here. Let me get us back on track there.

Okay. So I know [00:18:00] business owners, law firm, we all need just more time in our day. I always hear from all my folks that work with, I’m just so busy or I don’t have enough time. What are things that you suggest or that you teach that kind of give people back their time? 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Okay. Specifically for lawyers, I have three.

I guess my, my, my top three suggestions, lawyers generally, but I would say especially litigators in the example that I’m going to give the first one I would say is learn to set healthy boundaries. Now I actually did a workshop on this topic last summer because it was requested so much by my local attorney mom group.

And that’s actually where. Um, my interest in coaching layers came from this large group of women. We probably have about 1500 members at this point, a very active Facebook group. And I had already done a mindset mastery one on one workshop for them just to help them understand this framework, the stuff that I do, that I practice these days that I teach and that, that went well, it was very well received.

But I was asking them like, okay, look, I have a couple of ideas about what’s next [00:19:00] in terms of topics, but how about you help me help you by letting me know. What do you need to know about? What do you want to know? And this was the thing that, this was my idea, and it was very well received. And along with that, they also said, and we’re not going to get into this, but imposter syndrome, right?

So healthy boundaries was the very next workshop that I did because it was so important. Much a problem for me in the earlier days of my, and also so much a problem for these attorneys that I was talking to and working with. So the UT Law CLE, they have an online catalog and there’s, it’s called setting boundaries with clients and colleagues.

This is the workshop that I did. And just to be clear, my role as a faculty member with UT Law CLE is basically. Completely volunteer. So I don’t get any money by recommending their workshops, but they do have some great content and this is one of the ones I’d recommend. And one of the examples that I talk about in that workshop that is to me is so clear, it’s, I think it’s probably clear for any litigator about where boundaries can come [00:20:00] into play is in the early days for me, when I was in court all the time.

The early days of my practice as a criminal defense attorney, I had no idea that I could and should set any boundaries when it came to scheduling. Specifically when for criminal defense attorneys, they have court coordinators and judges throwing dates at them right and left in multiple courts all day long.

I shouldn’t say all day long, all morning, mostly court is in the morning from like 9am to noon, but they might appear in multiple different courts and they get reset, meaning they’re in court today. And when they. Wrap up their business for the day on this particular case, the court coordinator or the judge throws a date at them and quite often they just take that date and they write it down and it goes in their calendar and they’re back.

Whatever random date was just thrown at them and then same thing to some extent with a contested hearing or trial and they’ll look at their calendar to make sure they don’t have an absolute conflict, right? Oh, I’m going to be in another county that day with a hearing or whatever. I can’t, I’m not going to do that.

But what I didn’t realize and so many attorneys don’t [00:21:00] realize. Especially the younger they are, the less experienced they are, is I could actually set boundaries. You know what? I need time to do my out of court work during business hours. So I can’t appear in court every single day of the week. That’s just so disruptive.

I can’t get anything else done if that’s what I’m doing. And so I learned to start doing things like, and there’s some trial and error here. You might have to experiment, but like taking Mondays off and not off from work, but off from court where Mondays was. And what I learned for that to be is by business and personal development.

As well as things like business errands, personal errands. This was my default day of the week. If I needed to schedule a doctor’s appointment or something specific that I need to do for my kids. And so that’s, to this day, that’s the day that I favored for that. Then Fridays I learned I absolutely couldn’t.

This is where the trial and error comes in and your specific circumstances matter. I was in court for, which is the domestic violence court in Travis County, a specialized court. And since by that point. I probably had, by the point I was doing this, I probably had 85 [00:22:00] percent of my cases were in that court.

And so I couldn’t take Fridays off because that’s when they did protective orders. That’s when the biggest docket was for the criminal cases. That’s whatever. So Friday was definitely one of my court days, my court heavy days, if you will. And then the afternoons, Tuesday, and I still favor this scheduling probably because of this background, but grouping my, you know, calls, so setting boundaries with clients about when I’m available to get on the phone.

Right. Obviously they need to be able to talk to me. I need to be able to answer their questions. You need to be able to get back to them quickly. But that doesn’t mean that I have to accept a call right now in this instant when I’m working on something else. So setting boundaries with clients where you say, no, I’m available outside of an emergency.

I’m available for office hours, whether that’s a meeting or it’s a phone call, or maybe it’s a zoom, a virtual meeting Tuesday through Friday from 2 p. m. to 6 p. m. or whatever it is. I’m just throwing out. What my times tend to be, but everybody’s life is a little different. What days work best for you and whatnot.

But the most [00:23:00] important thing here is that number one is learning to set healthy boundaries. And there’s a whole process for doing that. If you don’t know how to do it already, makes you the most effective. That’s what this workshop is about. So when I was asked, please. Help us learn how to do this. I sat down and said, all right, so when I learned how to do this effectively, what were the steps, what was involved?

Because this is actually a mindset challenge. It may not seem like it may seem very practical, but you know, how to actually go about setting boundaries effectively is a mindset challenge. So that’s number one. Should I just go on to number two or do you have questions? I know I just rattled. Oh, no, no questions.

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. I was just going to say one of the healthiest boundaries that I ever sat in my business and I still had to, is I take no cold calls. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Yes. 

Elizabeth Larrick: No 

Kiela Linroth Pace: cold. I totally agree with that. Yes, absolutely. And this was actually like that first group that I belonged to that provided business coaching for lawyers.

They taught me that. And it was a hard sell for me at first. And it is a hard sell for a lot of lawyers like they, and a lot of my ideal hire, I call them hiring attorneys, right? So [00:24:00] an attorney who’s looking at hiring me to do freelance work, to come in as special counsel, that’s a hiring attorney as to distinguish them from a client who’s hiring me to do them like a non lawyer who’s hiring me to do legal work for them, which I’m not really available to do any more of that.

Or an attorney who maybe it’s hiring me as a coach. So an ideal hiring attorney for me is somebody who really cares about the clients and really cares about the quality of representation they’re providing. And there’s this mindset that goes along with that. Oftentimes that you have to be available like now, and you have to be willing to drop everything to talk to the client in order to provide what the client needs in order to provide the high quality of representation and care that’s necessary.

And I’m here to tell you, that’s not true. That’s a limiting belief. Right there. And it’s one that is really destructive actually because it ends up meaning that you don’t have the time and energy. You get constantly interrupted even when you need to be doing work for your clients, right? Like when you would be best served and your clients would be best served for you having two [00:25:00] uninterrupted hours each day when you’re at your optimal.

For me, that’s typically like 10 a. m. to 12 p. m. when I am like, On point mentally. And that’s why I typically won’t take calls during that time. I won’t schedule calls or meetings. And so that’s something that, and there are tools there, a have a good assistant or paralegal, right? Who can provide a lot of the information and the contact that the client needs and then get back to them quickly.

Yes, I agree. And another thing that I like to do is I’ll return calls during a certain block. Right. Somebody called. I might try to call them back during my times during the office hours, but I’m not ever outside of an emergency going to take a call. Not typically not. And it’s not that I don’t care. It’s actually because I do care because I’m trying to conserve my energy so that I can be on point and focused only on that client and that client’s work when I need to be.

Elizabeth Larrick: Exactly. Yeah. I have a virtual receptionist that I call my iron curtain because they don’t let anybody get through unless it’s a judge. Cause all I do is, all I did was civil law. So [00:26:00] it never, there’s no emergencies in civil law. So. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Ah, you didn’t do family law. I take it. No, absolutely not. No way. Cause that’s, it’s funny.

Cause a lot of people, when they hear me say domestic violence defense, they. Later, well, they’ll think I said family law. Oh God, no, I will not touch family law with a 10 foot ball. That’s even though they’re very comparable, family law is the closest you’re going to get to DV and vice versa. But there are some dynamics in family law that I, even as a criminal defense attorney, it was like, Nope, I’m not doing that.

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. I, I bless those people who do family law. Cause there’s a big need for it, but it just was, there is totally, 

Kiela Linroth Pace: they are truly the, yeah, they’re the. Angels and the people who love it and the people who do such a great job. It’s completely necessary and it can help those people, but this is an important part of like special counsel.

The folks who are doing family law, one thing that’s important to understand, if you’re interested in working with me, be aware that one of my policies is I am not signing [00:27:00] on as attorney of record. And as a general rule, I’m not going to be the primary one interfacing with the clients. Yeah. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. Those are my boundaries.

You’re trying to help the business, not the 

Kiela Linroth Pace: work 

Elizabeth Larrick: of the business. The business, 

Kiela Linroth Pace: the business owner. Yeah. And I might be available for things like, I’m really good at talking people off a ledge and sometimes that’s necessary in family law. That was sometimes necessary in criminal law as well. So it’s one thing to come in as a pinch hitter.

To assist in certain ways. And sometimes a client can benefit from hearing it from a different voice. And I get that, but yeah, no, I’m not going to become the one for your 

Elizabeth Larrick: clients. Special counsel does not mean that. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Exactly. Exactly. Let’s see. We have number two, shall we? 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. Keep going. Yeah. Yeah. What other, and again, just to get suggestions to get your, get some time back.

Kiela Linroth Pace: Exactly. So setting those healthy boundaries should get you some time that now you can turn your attention to number two. And these were, I’m saying these in the order that I actually mastered them in my own life. [00:28:00] Setting boundaries is a great place to start to get you some of your time back. And then you can take some of the time that it’s going to take a little bit more time at first, but I promise you it will get you back more time.

And that’s learning to delegate effectively. We talked about that a little earlier. So finding and delegating to Qualified team members or vendors. And sometimes vendors can actually end up being team members for you, depending on how that’s structured, like a virtual assistant. Sometimes you have a dedicated person or they may not be dedicated.

They may work on other people’s accounts, but they work regularly for you on an ongoing basis. And actually I would be another good example as special counsel. If I do regular routine work for a client, even though I’m a vendor. I can actually become a team member. And in fact, in the case of somebody who wants to guarantee a certain number of hours, they can actually even put me on their website and that can be helpful and beneficial.

But here’s the thing. Not knowing how to do this well, right? So it’s a great way to leverage your knowledge, your experience, but [00:29:00] only if you learn to do it well. So I’m going to provide a tip here that one, there was a book that was recommended to me by, I think it was one of the coaches that I was working with at the time.

That was a fantastic resource for me. And that is, it’s called the one minute manager. By Ken Blanchard and Spencer Johnson. This was huge for me. It’s a pretty easy read. It’s a fairly small book, but it was game changing in terms of helping me delegate better to other people in a way that they actually took responsibility for the problem and where I refused to take responsibility for the problem, right?

The problem actually ended up being. They called it a monkey. I loved this. So I’m giving them a monkey. They don’t get to give back the monkey to me. I can talk to them about the monkey. I can make suggestions. And usually I’m going to ask questions like helping guide them. That’s my job. That becomes my job as the manager.

So it’s just a fantastic book. And it’s been a long time since I read it and implemented it. But I remember that it made such a big difference and absolutely gave me a whole bunch of time back because at that point, I was having trouble where [00:30:00] I had hired people who needed me so much that it’s almost like I had created more work for myself initially.

So before you even hire you, if you haven’t hired anybody yet, before you even make your first hire, read this book. That’s what I would say. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Absolutely. I definitely have read it. It’s super short and the way that it’s written is very easy. It’s a story plus little, it’s super great. Same people who did, who moved my cheese.

Another very, I love that too. Yeah. Short and sweet. And that’s, I, he has a whole series. I know that the one minute manager can Blanchard and Spencer Johnson have a whole series, but of one minute, all kinds of stuff, but yeah, great recommendations, super easy to read and short, and you can reread it again and study it easily as well.

So. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Yes. I honestly, so I’m back in startup mode. And when I start hiring my own team members again, I’m probably going to go back and read it. And actually, here’s another tip. This is an aside. This is a bonus. Some of the best resources for business and [00:31:00] personal development, put them on your shelf and come back to them.

Like, You’ll get more out of it if you read it again later. So if you start feeling like I’m struggling in this area again, go back to one of those foundational resources that helped you so much the first time around, because most likely, because you’re in a different place, you’ll get new things out of it.

You’ll be reminded of some things that maybe you forgot or you’re kind of rusty on. So yeah, dust off those bugs, get them back out and pay attention to your foundational resources. And honestly, who moved my cheese? That’s another one I’ll probably go back to soon. Right. And things are in, yeah, in flux.

It’s a great time to go to that book. 

Elizabeth Larrick: At the beginning of the year. I always like to reread a couple of books. Just one of them is you are a badass by Jen Sincero. One of my favorites. Yeah. Yeah. She’s, she’s a good punch in some of those ones. I’m always like, okay. I got to go back and read that or it’s just that time to refresh and get jazzed up again.

Kiela Linroth Pace: Yeah. No, she’s definitely that. I consider that her main book, primary book, I would consider a foundational resource in my own studies and books that I [00:32:00] recommend to clients. For sure. She’s got several and her money book, I forget if it’s like you are a bad ass at making money. Oh my gosh. That one’s fantastic for money mindset.

Yeah. Oh, 

Elizabeth Larrick: it’s awesome. I reread that one as well. And then she has the other one, I think she has a little one and then I’m a huge fan. I get her calendars. So I have a calendar reminder every day, but yeah, her two ones, you were about us and you’re about us at making money. She does a fantastic job. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Yeah.

And I would recommend for lawyers in particular, definitely read her first book, but I would highly recommend the money book. And part of the reason I think it’s a lot of lawyers. I don’t know. They don’t like to talk about money. They don’t necessarily understand that money, like you need to get comfortable with money and you get comfortable talking about money and get to a place of having an abundance mindset.

I think many of us don’t, and we just have no clue what it means to have a good mindset around money. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. And I think in plaintiff’s personal injury, it’s, it’s tough because we walk in the [00:33:00] courtroom and everybody in that juror, they already programmed in their mind, we’re just a bunch of greedy trial lawyers.

And so talking about money can be tough if you’re not comfortable. Like they know it. That’s that little gut feeling. Exactly. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You’re going to be somewhat out of integrity if you’re not comfortable talking about money and that’s going to definitely communicate itself to them in ways that you may not understand and are not going to serve you well.

Elizabeth Larrick: One of the thing about Jensen Sarah really quickly, if you all pick up the book, so what I also love about her, you are a badass is in the back. She has all of her resources, like all these extra books, like if you are curious. And so I think one of her book is one of the very first ones that I picked up and then I loved it so much.

I just went through and went through her resources and she’s got a bunch of really great stuff in there too. If you just don’t know. And I think a lot of people just don’t really know where to get started sometimes. And so. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: That’s a great idea. Last 

Elizabeth Larrick: plug for her. I hope maybe she’s listening. No, I doubt it.

Yeah, I love it. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Last suggestion. [00:34:00] No, I’m going to make one more. I’m going to make one more plug for her. One of the things I love about her writing is that it’s so fresh and irreverent and even funny at times, even though she’s dealing with a very serious subject matter. So it’s easy to read. It really connected with me on a level in a way that some of the resources that have been recommended to me before that were hard, like some of the money mindset books in particular.

I cannot remember the name of it right now. It doesn’t matter, but it was just like I had to force myself through those books. Hers. No way. It was just so easy to read and it was so easy to go back to. I actually look forward to it when I’m planning to return. So yeah, I’ll stop plugging her too. So let’s say we were still on our list of suggestions.

Number three. Yeah. For getting time back. Now this one is probably counterintuitive for a lot of folks too, but choose work that lights you up. I know it’s easier said than done and [00:35:00] oftentimes you may feel overwhelmed by the mere suggestion. If you’re at a place with your law practice, with your work, with the business side of things, if it’s so hard and it’s like pushing a boulder uphill, that kind of thing, that may make it feel overwhelming.

But if that’s you, and that’s what’s going on. Then this tip is especially for you because it doesn’t have to be that way, even within the same exact job, the same work, the same business, you can make changes, you can adjust things, you can delegate some of the things that are dragging you down like that energetically, and you can actually transform your job.

In my case, it was over a period of nine months that I was able to transform my job where the work that I was doing, even though it. Very much resembled the work that I was doing before was more aligned with things that let me up. Now, for me, ultimately, it actually also meant shifting out of law, even though there were a lot of things that I loved about law, about litigation, and a lot of things that were very fulfilling and rewarding.

What I ultimately realized is that coaching was really what let me up. And that’s [00:36:00] why I made that decision to shift gears. And so here’s the thing. This may, it may be a lot and it can be a lot, but I promise it pays massive dividends because the thing that you may not realize if you haven’t made any of these shifts yet is that your work can actually energize you rather than draining you, rather than sucking the soul out of you, so to speak.

And I know a lot of lawyers who are in that place where it really, there’s some litigators who that is what lights them up and that’s fantastic, but there are many people doing litigation where that’s really not what lights them up and that’s terrible because it tends to suck them dry. Right? So here’s the thing.

If you’re doing work that actually lights you up, then it energizes you rather than draining you, which means you need less recovery time. This is where you get your time back and it leaves you in better shape for everything else in your life. So when you’re going off to do the things with your family, when you’re sitting with your clients, as opposed to in the courtroom, you have more time, more energy, more ability to be there for them.

You’re more effective in your life and you’re happier. You’re [00:37:00] more at peace. So this is probably my favorite of these three, even though it’s the third to get to is it really took numbers one and two to get to a place where I could even see much less start figuring out how to implement number three.

Elizabeth Larrick: Having that space. And a lot of times I feel like that kind of limiting belief that may be underneath there, which is, I can’t say no because I need money. I need to, and the funny thing is, and I’m sure this happened for you. As soon as you really made that shift and went after that thing that lit you up.

The money comes right. The, the, it’ll follow your energy. And like you said, sometimes it’s just the smallest things. And I always tell people like we all in a law firm, or if there’s just two of you, generally you all, it’s a ying and yang. You all have give that person their strengths and what makes them happy.

And if luckily, if you don’t like it, great, give it to them and vice versa. Because not we’re just because you are a lawyer doesn’t mean you do. Everything that comes with being a lawyer, every single task, because you’re not going to be great at everything when it comes to being a lawyer, [00:38:00] there’s going to be stuff that you’re.

That’s right. Are fantastic at, and it lights you up and you love it. And then that other stuff, it just burdens you and it takes a long time. And it’s draining, just like you said, getting all that stuff rearranged. But I think you made the best point, which is you got to have a little space to have that reflection to see, Oh, That is not my jam or my jelly.

How can I delegate that or maybe just not do it? 

Kiela Linroth Pace: And there’s one thing that you said that kind of perked up my ear. Just because you’re really good at something doesn’t necessarily mean it’s what you’re meant to be doing forever and, or what lights you up. So this was certainly true for me. I was really good at defending DV cases.

And I was really good at criminal litigation. There were lots of aspects of it that really did light me up, but they were this pick and choose thing. And I felt like I had to, can I say shit? I felt like I had to slog through so much of it. I 

Elizabeth Larrick: think [00:39:00] I don’t, I’m not sure where exactly. It’s okay with me, but I don’t, 

Kiela Linroth Pace: here’s what I’ll just say it.

Okay. I felt like I had to slog through so much shit to get to the, the, the pieces that were so uplifting and rewarding and, and validating, even those pieces were few and far between for me, even though I was really good at it. And so ultimately that’s what I realized when I had that space and that time to reflect.

And that was for me, one of the silver linings of the pandemic. It really did give me a lot more space, a lot more time to reflect, even than I had already earned through these types of efforts in my work. And that’s when I realized I am really good at this, but it’s not what lights me up. It’s not what I need to be doing long term.

I’m grateful for the experiences, right? And they certainly feed, they lead to, they lead into. What I’m doing now and contribute toward what I bring to the table. I would hate for somebody who thinks I would hate for somebody to think I’m really good at this. So it must be what I meant to do. Not if it’s not lighting you up, [00:40:00] not if it’s not lighting.

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. Which makes me think of a book. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Oh yeah. Which 

Elizabeth Larrick: books out there. Yeah. I love it. Gay Hendricks, the great leap. Okay. I 

Kiela Linroth Pace: have not read that one. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Oh, yeah. It’s a, it’s, and he talks about being in the zone of genius, being in the zone of excellence. And you may need to get drop off this thing that you do well to go to this like excellence level.

Oh, 

Kiela Linroth Pace: absolutely. He’s got lots 

Elizabeth Larrick: of stuff out there. That’s the one that I’ve read. He has another one out that builds on that, but I haven’t read that one yet, but, but yeah, it’s a great, it’s not very long. It’s pretty short and it’s, it talks about limiting beliefs, but then like this whole these zones, but it fits right in with what you just said.

Yeah. Yeah. I just, Oh my gosh. We’ll have to put all these. Okay. So let me just tell everybody who’s listening. We’re going to make a list of all these books. We’ve been talking about. We’ll put them in the show notes for you. Yeah, for sure. We’re coming now a little bit on time, but what I want to ask you, and so you can talk to everybody about what’s your ideal client, your favorite clients to help and let’s [00:41:00] divide it up.

If you don’t mind, let’s talk about coaching and then let’s talk about special counsel. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Okay. So they’re related. They’re similar. So for special counsel, my ideal hiring attorney cares. About his or her clients about the quality of representation that they’re providing. But the part that really makes us a good fit is they’re pressed for time and they really want to focus on activities that are more lucrative, more impactful.

And when I talk about this, it might or might not be business activities, right? If they want to work on their business, that’s great. I can make help. Help them make the time. I can even point them in the right direction if they don’t already have a direction. But it may be that they want to be able to go on vacation uninterrupted.

Maybe that they want to spend more time with their family, that sort of thing. Basically, they know that there’s a better way and they’re looking, you know, looking for it and wanting to get some time back for themselves to, you know, start doing things. things better or different or whatever it is. And they understand that leveraging my experience can help them help provide a path for improving whatever it is, their law [00:42:00] practice, their business, their life in general.

So that’s there. When it comes to my coaching practice, it’s similar. But there’s a little bit more to it because we’re talking about a bigger investment of time, energy, and money. And so this is somebody who’s really ready for a change. They don’t necessarily know what that change means, but they know that what you said earlier, what got them here isn’t necessarily going to get them to the next level and they are ready to do.

Whatever they need to do in order to make that change for me, I had to get to a certain pain point in my life and my business to really be ready to make that kind of investment of time, energy, and money. Like I said, I also had to, even within that journey, I had to get to a certain point with my business development of getting stuck that place.

I had already made a significant investment of all three of those things, time, energy, and money and business coaching, but. To get to the point where I was actually ready to try different things, new things that I didn’t necessarily understand. So this is where some of the woo thing can come in. I had to get stuck in business.[00:43:00] 

I had to get stuck two years in with this gargantuan problem of I’ve got this now thriving, successful law firm that is still feeling like it’s riding on my shoulders and I have no relief. Right? So the person who’s a great fit for me in terms of, uh, coaching, It’s probably most of what I said about the hiring attorneys, but also they’re actually ready to try something new and different and understand that it may take a leap of faith.

It may be something that doesn’t, they don’t understand yet, so they’re ready to venture into the unknown. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Gotcha. It sounds like what we’re looking for though are definitely people who are ready for something new, different, open to different solutions, curious learners, right? Maybe. You know, 

Kiela Linroth Pace: yeah, that’s for sure.

On for coaching, I’d say for hiring attorneys, not necessarily because if they’re interested in and want to go down the path of really transforming their practice, their business, their life, then yes, because that oftentimes is what it takes, but I’m not going to be pushing that on them. If what they’re really [00:44:00] looking for is just somebody to take some of the pressure off, take some things off their plate.

I can do that too. It’s all about consent. I’m not going to come in and say, we’re going to Completely transform everything here because they may like where they are. That’s not something I’m going to make a decision about. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. We’ve been talking about in my mind and what you mentioned, like somebody wants better, like work life balance, but you’re definitely going to come in and implement a system that they’ve never heard or thought of.

Thought of that’s still going to take a little bit of, I know this is different, but just give it a second, try it out for a little bit, you know, like not taking cold calls. Like sometimes I’ll tell people like lawyers that, and they’re like, what I’m like, yeah. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: And it’s funny. Cause I’m thinking about one particular attorney who is excited about the prospect of working with me.

We just had a conversation a couple of days ago and we’re going to have our next conversation in a couple of days, an office visit. And he’s one of those who is, I think he cannot even imagine. Scheduling calls the way that I do. And that’s my point is I’m not going to push anything on him. [00:45:00] I might suggest that he consider it, but that’s it.

And it’s totally, he gets to be the creator in his life, right? He gets to decide what he wants to do and what he doesn’t want to do. Even if I know that would provide him with a lot of relief. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Right. Everybody else knows it’s going to. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Exactly. If it’s something that he’s just not comfortable contemplating at this point or forever, he gets to decide and it’s a little different.

And that’s what I mean, like the difference between somebody who wants to work with me as special counsel versus somebody who’s actually ready to work with me as a coach. It takes a bit more. It takes a bit more faith. It takes a bit more. And I don’t mean that in terms of religious faith, faith that I’m going to help them.

And if they’re not at that place yet and they’re not at that comfort level yet, then maybe what they really need to do is follow me on social media a bit, do a couple of my workshops and get a feel for who I am and what I’m like as a speaker and a coach before they take that leap. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Are you doing any mastermind groups right now?

I have a group. It’s more of a mentoring [00:46:00] group. I originally tagged it as a mastermind group, but I actually recently decided I’m going to reframe that. And here’s the deal for folks who don’t really want to make the level of investment, money, time, energy, that private coaching is Requires and I say requires, because it’s usually if you’re investing at that level, then you want to make sure you’re really ready to put a lot into it.

I think, and that’s my preference. I don’t really want someone to step into one of my private coaching seats unless they are ready for that. For folks who want a lower level of investment, but still want to have access to me. That’s what the group experience is about. And I basically set aside three times each month, basically a weekly zoom call that we get together and they can ask any questions.

I might provide a lesson. And it’s really what they need type of time. And there are also like a monthly call that’s optional that they can have a private call with me. And that’s the way I’m doing that right now. It’s really just designed for the folks who, yeah, you know what? I am ready to work with you, but I’m not ready to work with you at that level.

Or I’m just [00:47:00] not, maybe I’m not now or may never be ready to invest at that level. It’s just a way to offer something for folks who are earlier in their. Careers, A, may not have the resources or they’re just so swamped. They’re like, I don’t, I just don’t know if I can make use of. 

Elizabeth Larrick: I think it’s a great way for people to put their toe in the water.

If they’re going to, if they’re ready to do something different, but you’re just checking things out, definitely support masterminds or mentor groups, just so you can at least be in the same space as like minded people, like someone trying to solve some issues. 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And to be clear, I have my own coach.

I have my own mastermind group that I belong to. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Same here. Same here. It’s, I always suggest it for anyone, no matter what they’re doing. Listen, having that outside person be able to like, look in and be like, Whoa, like you, you grow in leaps and bounds compared to doing something, trying to do it on your own.

Kiela Linroth Pace: Absolutely. Yeah. And sometimes people ask me like, okay, so [00:48:00] when should I hire a coach? Why should I hire a coach and who should I hire? These kinds of questions. When is when you feel like you need more, you’re maybe wanting to either get where you’d want to go faster. Or you’re stuck. You’re at sea. I know something needs to change.

I’m not sure what or how or whatever. These are great times to start looking into coaching and hiring a coach. The who, that’s another great question. And it’s a, it should be somebody who’s accomplished the thing that you want to accomplish. And you might like, how do you know that you might know other people who know them?

You might have, and this is a great one. They might have some opportunities, some ways to work with them that are a lower investment that you can start with. For me, that’s my workshops, right? Available through UT Law, CLE, or follow me on social media and look for those times when I’m going to be speaking for the Austin Bar Association or the Capital Area Trial Lawyers Association or whatever, for my, one of my first coaches, that was, he’d have these little trainings that were like audio recordings, and then it was followed by an [00:49:00] event that was live in person.

And you fly across the country and have a two day event, do things like that to get a sense for them, because the key is this, does it resonate with the Do you connect? Do you get a good feeling? Do you feel like they’re going to help you? That’s pretty much it. They’ve accomplished it and they click with you.

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. And there’s most people you should be able to, like you said, follow them on social media, go check out their websites, check out their blogs. They put a book out there. I always read the book and that generally will tell me like, do I want to invest more? Because the book’s a pretty low investment doing something else.

And I’m not, I don’t like to say every coach has to have a book because most of the ones that I’ve used don’t. But. They have enough material that, like you said, does that voice resonate or does it not? 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Because it doesn’t, it’s not going to. Exactly. Yeah. And you might be able to get on the phone with them.

I do a discovery call. And one thing I will say is if you are just trying to fill them out, just be honest. Make that clear. Some people will do, I used to do these strategy sessions after my workshops. I’ve gotten to a place where I need to [00:50:00] protect my time a little bit more, but you know, for somebody who’s genuinely interested, um, I would say just reach out to the person and see what they have, what they can suggest, you know, what they offer.

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, exactly. Keely. I really appreciate all of your time today. I know that folks listening probably hopefully learned a lot. If not, there are lots of book suggestions. We’ll put that in the show notes and also put a way for folks to connect with you directly. And again, like I said, I love following you on LinkedIn.

Is that a good place to follow like social media? 

Kiela Linroth Pace: Yeah, LinkedIn is a pretty good place to follow me. I also have a public profile on Facebook. It’s Austin Key LA and people sometimes think that’s my first name. No, it’s because I’m from, I’m born and raised in Austin. I’m one of the unicorns. Yeah, exactly.

So Austin Kiela is my handle on Facebook for my public profile as well as Instagram. Instagram isn’t really developed yet, a to do [00:51:00] list item, but you can follow me there and I do sometimes little video clips and little suggestions and whatnot, but my website is probably the best place if you want to.

LinkedIn, the, just messaging me on LinkedIn is great. I love that and then also you can get on my website and go to the contact page and if you just drop me a note there, it shoots me an email. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Awesome. All right. Thank you so much again. I appreciate you coming and talking to what special counsel means and hopefully we can have you back on in the future and 

Kiela Linroth Pace: I would love that.

Keep 

Elizabeth Larrick: trading book suggestions. Yeah. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Awesome. Take care. Thank you. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for tuning in today. Appreciate that. If you liked the episode, please don’t forget to follow us on your favorite podcast platform and until next time, thank [00:52:00] you.

Are all clients a good fit for witness preparation? Join me as I share a recent experience of a client resisting deposition preparation. I will also discuss ways to identify if a client is open to learning – or if they’re just acting like a know-it-all. Discover the signs to look out for, and I’m also giving out some questions to consider to evaluate your client’s readiness and willingness to engage in the process.

This episode takes a closer look at how to handle clients and determine their level of investment in a case. I can’t stress enough the importance of having an in-depth conversation with the client before the deposition to ensure everyone is on the same page. I also offer tips on dealing with clients who may not be a good fit for witness preparation. Be ready to navigate the complexities of client management in the courtroom.

In this episode, you will hear:

• Questions to assess client readiness
• Tips for productive conversations with clients to ensure they’re invested in the process
• How to determine if a client is a good fit for witness preparation
• Questions to ask yourself to consider if a client is open to learning

Follow and Review:

We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.

Supporting Resources:

Have a question or idea for an episode? Email Elizabeth (she reads all her emails) Elizabeth@larricklawfirm.com 

Episode Credits:

If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.

Episode Transcript:

Elizabeth Larrick: Hello, and welcome back to the trial lawyer podcast with your host me, Elizabeth Larrick. Thanks so much for tuning in today. I want to have a short episode, but talk about something that happened recently that I think happens quite a lot to us. And that is clients [00:01:00] who resist getting prepared for deposition or trial.

And what it brought me to was thinking about having an episode talking with y’all about how not every client is a good fit for a client. Um, and so I’m going to talk about, um, how to do a witness preparation. And generally it comes down to three different things that I have seen and encountered. And trust me, I have definitely encountered this over the years of working with people in depositions who are not open to learn.

They are not open to the help. Or they just don’t think they need the help. Right? They think they know everything already. And You could have a person who has all those things wrapped all in one. And generally you’re going to have pretty easy signs to know this person would not be a good fit. But sometimes you have people who it’s hard to determine whether they’re a good fit or not because sometimes they have [00:02:00] behavior that tells you that they’re not really open to learning.

And sometimes they are. So sometimes it can be difficult to ascertain that. And I want to talk about this because I recently had this exact situation and I thought, was this totally preventable?

So let’s talk about it with our folks on the podcast, because I know you guys are running up against this kind of situation all the time. And I see people basically just let it happen. I let it happen. Let’s try to prevent that. So let me talk a little about the example that I have. So recently I had an attorney that asked me to come help with deposition prep and they had the deposition set two or three months out.

And so we start planning and the client all of a sudden plans a [00:03:00] vacation. And the vacation is the two weeks before the deposition arriving home one day before the deposition and kind of questioning. Okay. That seems like we’re cutting it really close. Hey, that’s all right. Let’s just use virtual, right?

We can use virtual. I’ve done it many times. I encourage folks here to use zoom on Witness preparation all the time. We start looking at, let’s make some Zoom appointments. And that becomes very difficult. It’s very hard to pin down. Sometimes they just don’t show up. That’s okay. All right. Lots going on over there.

So I just always want to be differential. Could be something else. I don’t know what’s going on. And then we have our in person meeting, show up late and then left early. Okay. All right. So there was really no preparation for this person at the end of the day, just hoping that they [00:04:00] did well, which I assumed that they did all right, their deposition.

But what it came down to is I think this was somebody who was not really open to the help, despite saying so. So I think this is a situation where there was a little bit of vetting and always was told whenever we had Zooms and calls together, Oh, of course, yes, absolutely. Oh, yes. I’m very much looking forward to this.

But then Roadblock, which is people always want to look at what are people saying, but really what are they doing? And what they’re doing is probably the truth, not necessarily what they’re saying. So what I want to do is talk about how we can look at cases. We can look at clients and really try to prevent a situation like this, because what happened was a lot of people put a lot of time and investment, not just me, into preparing this person and setting aside time.

And it was truly very much an energy suck. And It ended up being a total gamble because [00:05:00] we had invested so much time, but yet the client had not. So this is where maybe they’re not a good fit, right? Level of investment. So put together some questions that you could sit and ask yourself first. I always think it’s really helpful to walk through what You may be thinking in your mind asking some questions before you talk to your client that way one, you know planned out You have examples thoughtful when you have this conversation with the client, but what I would be asking Me, but this is what I asked myself now having gone through a situation where I was like wow That feels like there’s a lot of writing on the wall that we all ignored So what I want to ask myself is this person open to learning?

You And that, are they asking questions? And I think when we have a case and we, especially when we get into litigation, right, that’s really foreign for people. Some people they’ve had a [00:06:00] claim or someone’s had a claim before they’ve had, they’ve seen situations, but when it comes to litigation, most people are pretty foreign.

So I always want to be looking at, have they been asking questions? Are they open to learning the process? Are they curious about how this all works? Or are they just there when they need to be and otherwise? Now, I know there’s a lot of people who just don’t know what questions to ask, but you’re going to see that they have a level of engagement in what’s happening with the file.

They call, they’re curious, at least to know updates on what’s going on. The other question I ask, is this person ever acted like a know it all, right? And we all know what a know it all is, even as kids we know what know it alls are. Guess what? Those kids grow up to be adult know it alls. You could have a client that’s a know it all and that’s okay.

Hey, we gotta, we just gotta know what we’re working with here. Because sometimes know it alls are a resistance. Sometimes there’s ways to work through that resistance. And [00:07:00] I’ve seen a lot of lawyers do really good jobs working in relationships with know it alls, but they have boundaries and rules and expectations from the very beginning.

Now, sometimes we don’t know this about a person and we learn that about them, and then you still need to set up those boundaries, rules, and expectations. The other thing I always ask myself is, okay, is this person late all the time? Are they chronically returning things to my office or getting things back to me late?

And again, what we’re trying to figure out is what is the investment level of this person? You may have clients who are 100 percent invested, maybe they’re 90 percent invested and you don’t even lose one hour of worry on this person because you know that they give you their time and their attention with the case and that they’re going to do that when it comes time to prepare for deposition.

So, we’re [00:08:00] talking about people who maybe they’re not going to be a fit, maybe they’re going to be a little bit of an issue and that’s what they’re This is really addressing is those people who you have a hunch that they might not be a good fit, or you just know, big red flag, like totally no, they’re not going to be a good fit because we don’t want to waste your time and your energy.

You have only so many cases. You have so many things. You have to make a decision and a choice about how to use your energy and your time wisely. And if you have a client who’s not investing in Or invested in their case, then you really need to be upfront about, again, the repercussions of their lack of investment.

And I think when clients are not invested in their case, we’re seeing them not return things on time. We’re seeing them not give you things to support the file. Those examples like photographs, videos, [00:09:00] tax returns. Emails, text messages, are they not getting that because that’s evidence, people. We got to have that stuff.

Maybe they’re not returning that stuff. So they’re not best. Maybe they’re not returning your calls. Maybe they’re putting off having calls with you. Maybe they won’t schedule things to get things done. That’s somebody who’s just not really invested. And you know what happens when the client is not invested.

When you can’t get those key pieces of evidence to support their damages, to support liability, there is a large loss of value. You know it’s going to take a longer time to get to settlement and you have to start making decisions. So I think it’s really important to know that you as the lawyer have to tell your client about the repercussions, right?

You have to tell them there’s going to be a loss in value here. It’s going to take longer time to get to [00:10:00] settlement. And I have to make decisions about files, and guess what, this is probably not a file that we’re going to try, okay? Because you are not providing the evidence and the investment that we need to be able to take the case to a trial.

So, if that’s something that you’re hard set on, client, we might need to find you somebody different to work with, okay? But let’s talk about how to have that conversation. Once we decide, okay, this is somebody who’s going to put up a fight for preparation or they’re going to let you go through the motions and they’re just not going to show up or they’re not going to be present or they’re going to leave early.

They’re going to come up with an excuse. We want to prevent all that for you for sure. So I always have just a quick conversation with the client to talk about it. And again, I think in other episodes I’ve mentioned this, if not, I’ve wouldn’t, I’ve been doing CLEs. We’re talking people in podcasts and really emphasizing having a 30 minute [00:11:00] conversation.

It can even be 20 minutes y’all before you are scheduling a deposition and not sending an email, not, Hey, can we get dates for deposition? No, you are calling as a lawyer to talk about what it is and the dedication that you need from them for preparation, setting that scene. And that’s really what this little conversation is about, which is basically, Hey, we’re about to schedule deposition.

This is something you have not done before, right? That’s a fact right there. Can’t argue with the fact. Depositions significantly impact a case because decisions are made based on what is said or not said. Okay, so now we’re saying, hey, this is an important thing. You haven’t done it before. And then the next part of it is my process.

Part of what I do to prepare you is by having one on one time together over several meetings. So you can feel prepared and then walk into that deposition and show them that you were prepared. [00:12:00] How does that sound? So what have we done here? We’ve done several different things with this really easy setup and then we turn it over and open it in question.

How does that sound? And they’ll just tell you what they’re going to tell you. But, you’re stating a fact, they haven’t done it before. You’re stating another fact, it’s significant. And, what you want, what your expectation is that they are going to prepare with you one on one over several meetings. Because we always have everything has a reason built in here, right?

And what happens is you’ll get deflection. What are they going to ask me? We’ll get to that. That’s why I want to spend one on one time with you preparing. But how does that sound? I would like to know. See, we’re going back to that question, right? You guys are great at depositions. Okay, just rephrase that question.

Get it back to them. Right? Make sure that they’re answering that because we want to make sure people are a good fit. We want to use your energy and your time wisely. And likewise for the [00:13:00] client, it goes the same way. Hey, if this is something that you don’t want to invest in, that you don’t want to spend time and energy, then I’m not going to do that either.

But that means that we’re making decisions about this case and the value. And are you okay with that? because you’ve told me before I need X, Y, Z, or whatever the value is before. Because again, if you have had the case for a while, you’re going to know what the client thinks or feels, whether they trust you about the value or they don’t, they have an expectation in their mind of what they have to have.

We always have people like that. So you guys can think of an example in your mind. But I wanted to put together this short episode to talk about this because Even as somebody, myself, who has been doing this particular type of preparation for almost 10 years now. Easily, yes, it’s over 10 years I’ve been doing this.

I still run into people like this. I still get caught in this trap. And I don’t want you to get caught in this trap because we know it’s [00:14:00] preventable. We know it’s something that we can have a quick conversation about to understand. And hey, if that’s their decision, that’s fine. That’s their case. But you want to know so that you can be prepared for the same thing and then not be caught off guard.

All right. I hope that this episode was helpful. Again, short and sweet to the point, how do we figure out if people are a good fit for witness preparation, right? Ask yourself those questions. Is this person open to learning? Are they asking questions? Has this person acted like a no at all? Has this person been late?

Are they chronically returning things to the office slate or just not returning things at all? What’s their level of investment in this case so far? Then turn around and have a conversation with the client before the deposition gets scheduled so that you can both be on the same page. And then also so they can set aside time.

You’re, it’s a [00:15:00] very considerate thing to do. So I hope that this helps you. If you have a suggestion or if you have a question or if you want to come on the podcast, please email me. My email is always going to be in the show notes as a way to get ahold of me, but till next time. Thank you so much.

Are you really prepared for that deposition, or are you falling into the trap of catchy YouTube tutorials and oversimplified online advice? Join me today as I navigate this treacherous landscape, discovering the dangerous pitfalls along the way. From the barrage of legal jargon to misinformation, these videos can lead you down a path of confusion, potentially harming your case. Using Texas law as an example, I call out the issues stemming from this online maelstrom of well-meaning but often misguided advice.

But worry not, there is a better way! I advocate for a personalized approach to deposition preparation – tailoring strategies to your specific case needs, rather than using a one-size-fits-all solution. Listen in as I share my tips for successful trial preparations, focusing on client management and the delicate task of one-on-one preparation. 

Be cautious of clients seeking advice online and learn how to guide them away from this problematic practice. Whether you’re a budding lawyer or a seasoned veteran, you’ll find valuable insights into crafting unique strategies that cater to your case’s specifics.

In this episode, you will hear:

• Issues with legal advice videos
• The importance of one-on-one client preparation and client management
• The danger in short-format videos with less context and less explanation
• Personalized preparation for successful trials

Follow and Review:

We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.

Supporting Resources:

Want to see for yourself what’s on YouTube? Click Here. 

Have a question or idea for an episode? Email Elizabeth (she reads all her emails) Elizabeth@larricklawfirm.com 

Episode Credits:

If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.

Episode Transcript:

Elizabeth Larrick: Hello and welcome back to the podcast, Trial Lawyer Prep. I am your host, Elizabeth Larrick, and I’m glad you’re here today.

I am going to talk about what I found on YouTube about deposition preparation. This episode came by way [00:01:00] of a text message. I think I talked about that some clients will go and look at YouTube. There’s YouTube stuff out there. Go look at it. And I had a text message from someone that said, are you, wow, really?

What’s on YouTube? So I thought, okay, this will be fun. So I did a little poking around on YouTube and. Again, the reason why I decided to do an episode about this is because I know that when people go look at this stuff, there’s a lot of garbage out there. I want to give it to you so you know, Oh, wow, this is what people are looking at.

I need to like one, stop them from doing that to pair them. But again, as always, my mantra is to take the time to pay your client one on one. Don’t let YouTube or Tik TOK or Instagram prepare your client. But also, if you’re working with your client and you’re doing one on one, be sure and ask them if they have looked up things online and then politely ask them to not do that.

[00:02:00] And so hopefully there’s some things in this video that will help you convince them if they are unconvinced that they can’t get ahold of you, get answers from you, or they don’t like your answers, there’s a reason why not to look it up. Now, I’ve also had clients who basically Brooke used to take my advice on that, which then makes you think about this is a client management issue.

Is this really a person who’s ever going to follow my advice, uh, when it comes to their case? That is the topic for a different episode. So let’s jump in really fast. This shouldn’t be a very long episode, but I hope that you find it somewhat entertaining. Okay. So I went to YouTube and just did a simple search, how to prepare for deposition question mark, right?

Not even your deposition. So of course what pops up, there are thousands and thousands of videos on this topic. And if you have searched. YouTube lately for anything you get long videos, you get the [00:03:00] shorts, you even get TikToks that are on there and so it’s just. We’re all spruled nonstop and some of this stuff is, is pretty scary as you get more depth into it.

The most watched video was actually uploaded 12 years ago. So there’s a lot of stuff out there. So just think 12 years of stuff, some stuff that probably doesn’t apply anymore, but anyhow, lots of videos out there, there are tons of things for people to pick from. The second thing that I noticed when I did this search was there’s title after title, win your deposition, crush your deposition, acing your deposition.

And some of these videos with these really short, like catchy titles are four minutes long. And you’re thinking, wait a second, how does somebody do that in four minutes? The shorter the video, the more likely someone’s actually going to watch it. And there’s whatever. Somewhat looks put together video.

People are [00:04:00] probably going to watch it. There was a couple other ones that I saw the power of saying, I don’t know. This one we’ll talk about a little more in depth. And if you rearrange that filter, you can see again, one of the top watched videos, that particular video, the power of saying, I don’t know, was in the top three.

Another one of those titles, the perfect witness. And that one had, it was in the top. Think four, five with 157. And that one, I actually clicked to watch a little of, and it’s an hour long. It is not a recent video. I will tell you it’s gotta be at least 10, 15 years old. It’s very interesting. I will say, and like most things, what I’ll talk about does not have a lot of context, a specific specificity.

One of the other titles that I saw that I wanted to tell you about was why insurance companies want to take your deposition, hence, to pay you less money. Lots of ones about deposition trick. [00:05:00] As you’re looking through here, rather, as I was looking through, there’s no real distinction. Of ones that are for like client depositions to prepare and ones that are for lawyers.

They’re all mixed in there. Of course, some of the ones that I’m talking about where these titles have to do for clients. Third thing that I noticed was we have either very older looking male lawyers in suits. Uh, some of them didn’t have a suit on, but they had a shirt and a tie, you know, in front of a bunch of books.

And then very young looking lawyers, there’s a lawyer out there, Jarrett Stone, who has basically he’s in a t shirt and he does all his videos that way. So it’s like casual and then verses on up to suits. And again, you don’t know if any of these people are lawyers. They never say I’m a lawyer, some of them don’t, but that’s another one of those things where it’s just these people are lawyers.

All right. So let’s talk about some of the advice that I heard, because I did watch several videos, of course, not all the way through, but some of the shorter ones and [00:06:00] some of the more popular ones, and a lot of the advice was the same, right? One of them was don’t stress, don’t stress about it. And it went so far as to say, I, to help a client not stress, I tell them that I’m just going to wear a business casual, right?

I’m not even going to wear a suit. Okay, sure. Another one that I heard many times, which was. You need to learn to pause before you answer a question because your lawyer needs to object. Okay, all right, so we’re just going to learn to pause. Another one that I heard was that you, the witness, should anticipate the questions, right?

If you sit down and prepare by looking at documents, you should be able to anticipate the lawyer questions. Found that one interesting. Of course, don’t lie as part of the advice. Don’t guess, part of the advice. Listen to the objections of your lawyer and try to decipher the message that is being sent to you.

Be [00:07:00] short, be concise with your answers, right? Don’t overshare. Only answer the question asked. I love this one because I just, and here’s the thing, we’ll talk about why I have some, like, why I have a lot of problems with this advice. No examples here. Zero examples in the, in these videos. And that is normally like the only answer the question has is almost always followed with make the other lawyer work for your answers.

Again, no examples here. Okay. The other one, of course, we talked about this a whole video on it. Say, I don’t know. Say, I don’t recall. Uh, another one that I thought was interesting that didn’t, wasn’t in a lot of videos, which was deferred to your experts. Okay, sure. Sure. Another one went on for about five minutes about.

I don’t think that was the whole thing was, you need to be nice. You need to be polite. [00:08:00] You need to be calm, no matter what happens, because that means you’re credible. That means that you don’t mind this litigation, that it’s just no big deal and that you are so likable. And I just thought, who else was really calm and polite and nice?

Jeffrey Dahmer. Okay. So doing those things alone, does it mean you’re credible or that you don’t mind litigation? I just. Interesting video. And then of course, last piece of advice that I saw in almost all of them was listen attentively to the questions. Of course, balled up with only answer the questions being asked in all of these videos, nearly every single one of them without skipping a beat.

We’ll talk about what a deposition is right at the beginning, and again, this goes back to, I’ve said this before, this whole, like, what I call a sit and suffer approach, which is basically a deposition is where the lawyers from the other side get to ask you questions under oath [00:09:00] with a court reporter, okay?

That’s literally what it is. Nobody talks about the purpose, although there was one on there with the title on there, but anyhow, it’s, it’s such a recipe for disaster. But before I totally talk about that, let me just talk about just a couple of problems just for the place of thinking, if I’m a client, I’m a person who’s never done a deposition and I’ve got to go be deposed and that’s why I get a text message.

I get the email, we need to schedule your deposition. Okay. They want to take your deposition. Okay. And that’s all you get. Give me dates. Let me have dates. Okay. So they’re just out on the web trying to find information. We know, I know from statistics that YouTube is the number one social media and search, right?

Number one in all age groups, YouTube is the tip top. Okay. So we know they’re going to YouTube. So they’re looking through this stuff. And first thing I [00:10:00] would say is there’s absolutely no context for them. Okay. Very few of these videos will say this is for someone facing a family law deposition. This is for someone in a corporate law.

This is somebody, uh, for a business lawsuit. This is someone who is in a personal injury lawsuit. Now there are a few that had workers comp in the title, which would be helpful, but again, if you’re just going from the top down or in most people do, what’s the top viewed stuff? Like none of those have any context in it.

And again, I also mentioned earlier. As a client looking through this, it’s hard to decipher which one is for lawyers and which one is for people. And again, our clients aren’t going to know the difference they could, it’s been a lot of time on there just trying to figure it out. And you’re thinking, why does that matter?

If all the advice is truly the same, Lisbeth, it’s all good advice here. And I would just say that really under prepares them. Somebody going in for a family law deposition is going to have a rude awakening compared to a civil [00:11:00] litigation. Demonstration, right? They’re very different styles of questioning and types of questions.

And so again, there’s just very little context. And the other problem that I would have from a client’s perspective is very little examples or explanation. So that leaves the client to guess, how does that apply in my situation? Again, answer the question asked, give me some examples of questions where people have gone on.

And one example that lawyer, a lawyer gave was, how was your vacation last week? Okay, well if the person goes on and on about their vacation, guess what? That’s not gonna hurt the case. We need examples where somebody might be oversharing that significantly hurts their testimony, okay? But they don’t do that.

Why? Because again, we’re getting further into preparation where we’re obviously doing lawyer work. Not just being very general. Let’s see. I think these are [00:12:00] super general. No examples. No explanation A lot of these videos have legal jargon with no Explanation which leaves your client guessing no one explains what an injection is any of these things All of them say that this is, the lawyer needs to object and you need, before you answer, you need to make sure it’s a question that you can answer legally and that’s your lawyer’s job.

Just hold on here. Again, in some states, okay, maybe in some countries, okay, maybe, but here in Texas, like 99 percent of things are going to pass muster and you got to answer them. So to give somebody that impression, they may have to answer questions. It’s really not helpful. And again, at the end of the day, most of the stuff is extremely general.

Okay. And again, because as lawyers, we’re making these videos, you know, that don’t give lawyer advice, but it’s lawyers giving advice. And it’s, again, it’s so general and I just, it’s such a problematic to me from my point of view. And again, [00:13:00] if you’re thinking like my client has got the finishes made up and now, this stuff is all on TikTok.

Okay. So imagine it in shorter formats with less context and even less explanation. All right. So let’s take this dog down the road and say, okay, really Elizabeth, what’s the problem here? I, it looks like I’ve got a proactive client. They’re going to go and watch these videos. Uh, you know, learn more about it.

This seems like a proactive person, you know, research. Okay, cool. Let’s take art, one of our very top of view videos, right? The power of saying, I don’t know, and your client watches and you don’t know that they’ve watched it. You gave them 30 minutes of preparation with some of the same reinforced advice that they got for the video.

So this reinforces the video must be true and correct. They get their deposition and. It’s one, I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know, after another, and [00:14:00] some of it, you’re okay with them. And then you start to realize like there’s stuff that they do know that they’re just not answering because they think that I don’t know is what they’re supposed to do because it’s powerful.

So it’s this video told on some lawyer, right? And as opposing counsel, you can get two roads, probably three, but we’ll just talk about two here. One is sometimes lawyers just stop the deposition. Say, Hey. Looks like we might need to reconvene because you’re telling me you don’t know but yet you answered this question in your Discovery answers or when you’re talking to the witness that day or stop ago Talk to the judge or the other Avenue, which is keep going.

It completely locked your client into knowing absolutely nothing They know nothing about their rights Which then they think, great, I’ll see you in trial because we’re not ever going to settle this thing and we’ll play this in front of the jury and see what happens. So, that’s one example of a problem like you don’t want your client [00:15:00] to follow this super general advice.

When that’s not always going to be, that’s not going to always serve it very well. So just know that this stuff is out there. Just know that people will take it hook, line, and sinker. I was, the other thing I did here was I just looked at some of the comments and all the comments. This is so great. Thank you so much.

I had much less worry about it. And I’m just like, Oh man, and yikes, because they don’t have any context. Right. They’re trying to fill that void, uh, for information. So again, going back to what’s the purpose of this episode? Hey, again, let me urge you to take the time to prepare your client. One on one do more than that.

30 minute shot at people. Um, two, don’t let YouTube or TikTok prepare your client. There’s going to be a misstep there and it may not be correctable. The other thing is ask folks if they’re looking stuff up online, right? And then kindly reminding them not to do that, especially when it comes to [00:16:00] depositions.

One thing we didn’t talk about. And I, one of the ideas that I had was to put together. Some of the top depositions that are on YouTube, because there are a lot, if you just go try to find depositions to watch depositions, the worst of the worst are on there and put it on the website, my website, so you can just watch it and go see, wow, this is the stuff that’s on there, clients are not deciphering, they don’t know which is good, which is bad, and this looks like this is a celebrity and they seem to be doing it and it seems to be fine.

Again, that whole context state. One other thing I will give as an example is I recently was preparing a client for trial and. Their research in getting ready for trial and trial testimony, he had watched hours and hours of trial on YouTube. He’d watched the Johnny Depp trial. He’d watched the Murdoch trial.

And again, he wasn’t going in [00:17:00] for a defamation case or a murder case. And so that was his examples, right? That was his fallback. In his mind, what was good and what was bad. And so it got ingrained. So it’s hard to go back and say, okay, well, that’s not really what will be necessary here. That may work there for Johnny Depp, but that doesn’t work here in a person entry case, so just keep that in mind because.

They will get in their mind what is good, what works because it worked for in this video for this person, right? But that may not work for them in their case. So I’ll like to say that personalized preparation is the way to go. So I hope that you found this helpful and thank you so much for listening.

Rate and review on your favorite podcast platform. And until next time, thank you so [00:18:00] much.

Don’t you just crave a fool-proof system to help you conquer trial preparation, regardless of how many people you have on your team? In my recent experience assisting a group of lawyers, it was evident that the make-or-break in their case was a robust method of prioritization and delegation. 

In this episode, we dig deep into the mechanisms of planning, organizing, and executing tasks effectively when prepping for a trial. I’m sharing crucial insights on how prompt decision-making and appropriate workload distribution can significantly amplify the results at the end of the day. I’m also teaching you how to assemble a top-notch trial team, even when you’re flying solo. Drawing upon my own experiences, I can’t stress enough the importance of knowing your abilities and limitations, seeking help when needed, and nailing your opening statement well in advance. 

Plus, I’m giving you a real-world example of a recent trial I was involved in, illustrating the essence of time and why defining roles and prioritizing tasks early are so critical. No matter the size or scope of your team, this episode aims to equip you with the essential tools and strategies to streamline your trial preparation process. 

In this episode, you will hear:

• Prioritizing and delegating tasks for trial preparation to excel
• Taking time to make prioritization decisions before deadlines
• Building a successful trial team

Follow and Review:

We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.

Supporting Resources:

If you have questions, email Elizabeth directly for assistance: elizabeth@larricklawfirm.com.

Episode Credits:

If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.

Episode Transcript:

Elizabeth Larrick: Hello and welcome back to the Trial Lawyer Prep podcast with your host, me, Elizabeth.

Thanks so much for joining us on this podcast journey. I really appreciate it. We are almost to episode 100, which is very exciting. But today I want to talk about trial preparation organization. [00:01:00] Lots of folks are going back to trial. Lots of things are being tried. It’s very exciting. I’m so excited for folks because we are finally getting back into the groove and some courts are even trying to groove a little faster, which is awesome.

And I had a recent experience where I’m helping some folks get ready. We’ve done some focus groups and they’re gonna go to trial and I just, I was really impressed at their organization, how they had their team organized, how they had prioritized things and how they were coming back around to that about 30 days out of trial and going back through and fine tuning whose job was what and what they expected.

And it was really great. And I am grateful to be a part of. Being on that team to help with that trial and knowing what my role is, of course, always helps me excel. But I know that sometimes that does not happen when we are going to trial. And I [00:02:00] know that there are times, because I’ve been there as a solo, I’ve watched other people going into trial where there was a lot of disorganization, there was No prioritization and things just fell through the cracks.

And I was thinking about this podcast episode yesterday and sitting outside. And it’s this point in the year that we have all these little hummingbirds that come through our yard. And I always put a feeder out in the, Summer and springtime, but there’s just this rush, and it’s this particular part of the species that they come down, they go to Rockport, and they just fly across the ocean and go to Mexico.

It’s really cool, but they need a lot of energy to do that. What happens is normally we have one little resident hummingbird, and he just fights everybody off. So there’s one or two people, they have little fights, and he can normally fight them off, but During this time, there are like four and five and six, and it’s just this huge scuttle bug.

And it’s really cute, of course, cause [00:03:00] they make these cute noises, but they can’t fight them off the whole time. So eventually everyone’s just at the feeder and just partaking. And that’s great. But what it made me think of was, It’s our brains and what our brains go through when we’re trying to prioritize.

And everything is fighting for that vital brain power, right? That creativity, that energy, those thoughts, that power, and sometimes it’s not a big deal. We have one or two things that we’re handling in that week or coming up or three things, maybe a couple of depositions, some intake calls, right? And we can.

Prioritize that. Oh yeah, I’m gonna do this. The depositions, of course, help cases, so I’m going to prioritize that. I’m going to use this time here. Intake call, not so much, but I’m going to do it. And we’re able to organize our brain power and then know, I can’t do that, let me send it over to someone else.

So we have time to make those decisions. But what I see oftentimes is when we come up to [00:04:00] trial, And we are getting in that 45 day range, that 30 day range. And it’s six and seven and eight different things. It’s motions in limine, it’s deposition designations, it’s outlining cross exam, it’s preparing witnesses, scheduling witnesses, getting a hold of those before and afters, working on that opening statement, fine tuning that jury selection.

Or even just starting on all of these things. So they’re all fighting right for our brain power. And when we don’t have thoughtful prioritization and delegating, it just doesn’t happen. And so what we end up having to do then is what I see is a lot of people pick questions. What they love to do, right?

For example, if you really love cross exam, like you’re probably going to do the cross exam outlines first, right? Ignoring everything else, opening statement, jury selection. Or what happens is you just have to sit down and go by deadlines, right? Which is the [00:05:00] first that has to get done? Where’s the biggest fire that we got to put out?

And what is the right quote unquote prioritization when it comes to trial prep? I would think it totally depends, right? I don’t think there’s one right or wrong answer. But I think the whole point of the question is that you got to stop and take that time and be thoughtful before you have no time. And then you are rushed to complete so many things.

And when we are rushed, we don’t do our best. It just, we don’t have all the power that we need. We don’t have all the thoughts. And what I see so many times is we rush to complete something. It’s due at five, and we don’t even complete it the day before and then have time to review. We have to complete it and send it in by that 5 p.

m. or, or send it, exchange it by 5 p. m. And we’ve missed something, right, because we have rushed, and that’s what we really want to avoid. We are trial lawyers. We love going to trial. [00:06:00] And so sometimes I think we don’t prioritize because we really don’t want to go to trial. We’re hoping that it’ll settle at the last minute.

And so we let a lot of these things slide down to that last minute. And I know from listening and being around some of the wisest trial lawyers, they know the importance of taking the time to choose what they prioritize before Those deadlines choose for us because we know that rushing around really weakens our preparation and our product that we’re putting out there.

And so just talk a little quickly about an example. So Andrew Gold was on the podcast a trial that we had done together in Seattle. And in that trial, we had five lawyers. On the plaintiff side. So we, one, had to organize and delegate because that’s a lot of people and everybody needs to know where they’re going to go, but [00:07:00] there were three of us, myself, Mr.

Keenan, and Andrew, who had a trial just two weeks before the start of the CLB trial. So we really had to prioritize earlier than we normally would because we knew that we would be working on this other trial and wouldn’t have time to stop, check, review, are you doing this, micromanaging, which is another reason why we want to have a system that we prioritize, delegate so that people know what they’re doing and you don’t have to worry about it.

So we sat down and we delegated, or of course I didn’t, but somebody else did. For example, our Seattle lead counsel, he had the opening statement. And he had actually been working on that with focus groups, but he had that. That was his thing and nobody else had to worry about. The Seattle associate had the motions and the briefs, which made sense because one, we had no time for that.

And two, we don’t have experience with the judge or Washington law, so that makes sense. Andrew had the cross of experts. [00:08:00] And I had exhibits and witness prep and before and afters, right? So that meant I needed to make sure I had time to schedule, had the exhibits in order. And when we got to Seattle, no deadlines were missed.

Everybody was pretty well in order. Of course, there’s always little last things that change, which is another reason why you want to make this system, even if your system is just sitting down and looking at the list of things to do. Motions in limine, jury instructions, opening statement, and just knowing, okay, what can I do now, what can wait, or I know some people who, once they get a case in, they start with the jury instructions first, right, put them in the file.

That’s all great. Some of those things are going to be easy, some of those things are not, but you can think out ahead of time, and that’s really what you want to be doing. Because. You will not have time as it gets closer to trial and things [00:09:00] start changing and you start getting extra stuff, right? So opposing counsel is very good about giving lots of extra things to fight about, lots of extra things to think about as we get closer to trial as distractions.

Now, you may be thinking, Hey, I’m a solo, Elizabeth. I don’t have five people to help me try a case and I don’t want five people. I’m a solo. I’m a solo. It doesn’t matter. If you are one person, this means you really have to be extremely diligent about prioritizing your time and your brain power. And you’ve got to get help with tasks that you don’t like or that you just suck at.

You can’t do everything. If there’s one thing that I’ve learned in being a trial lawyer is you cannot do it all. Something will suffer. And it will be significant. And the wisest trial lawyers that I know don’t go into battle by themselves. So I know a lot of folks who [00:10:00] they pair up with people to try cases, or you’ve got an all star paralegal who pretty much acts like a lawyer, right?

But either way you have got to see the writing on the wall that you can’t do everything. And looking at the examples of Of great trial lawyers and great verdicts. It’s a team and It’s also what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are. So I see many times amazing folks who are great in the courtroom.

They’re persuasive. They’re very good at that, but they stink at jury instruction. So they’re going to hire appellate counsel to handle the jury instructions, creating them, arguing for them, right? They’re going to have those appellate counsel who do briefs on the points of law that they don’t have to do now.

Of course it’s going to cost, but again, You want to put together the best possible trial and you can’t do that alone. [00:11:00] So if you’re a solo, here’s my message to you, get some help. Any less serve I’m ever a part of on all the local trial lawyer stuff, even my statewide stuff, nationwide stuff. When somebody says, I’m going to trial and I would love some help.

Always somebody chimes in, right? Somebody’s always, yes, please, I’m happy to go help you. We go down here in Austin and just help and watch and pick a jury, right? Be extra eyes. So, uh, There’s always going to be help out there. Of course, if you have extra time, you can go find those people who excel at the things that you do not.

For example, if cross examining defense experts is not your jam, trust me, there’s somebody out there who absolutely loves it. But you know what? That person’s probably not going to be the best person to do a direct exam of a client or direct exam of a for and after. And that’s what people do, right? We are drawn towards what we love to do.

We all have different skills and different talents. And your [00:12:00] job is to know yourself and to know what you love and what you excel at. And then stop and look around and find somebody who excels at the thing that you don’t, because they’re going to be out there. I see this all the time with firms that I work with.

Well, they be a pair of people that work together because they compliment each other so well, right? Like, It, it, it’s just like a wonderful compliment sandwich. And I’ve also see it where lawyers pair up and initially they think, Oh, you’re going to take opening. I’ll take this and you’ll do this person and I’ll do my client for direct.

But as they get into things, they realize, wow, you know what? This is my client, but you are really good at direct exam. Like you need to do this because that’s, what’s going to make the best trial possible. And those are calls that you have to make. But what those folks had done was. Spent enough time together to see and they prioritize what they were doing together and delegated [00:13:00] ahead of time and not on the courthouse steps to be able to put together the best possible trial.

And they want a lot of money for their client. And I know that they were really glad that they were able to look at each other and say, Ooh, you’re better. We do this? Oh, you’re better at that. Will you do this? Like we want the best possible trial that we can create. So last example, and this is more of a longterm example because I deal with a lot of folks with focus groups.

I think this summer I hit my thousand focus group. Very exciting. But what I see so often in doing focus groups with so many different folks is we get down, we’re coming into trial and. We’re going to do an opening statement focus group and. They don’t write it down. They just wing it on some points, an outline.

And I just, and I ask, did you write it down? I just, I’ll write it [00:14:00] down later. I’ve seen, talked to other trial lawyers and they just, they wing it. I know in my mind they don’t wing it. I know for sure they don’t wing it. They may look like they’re winging it, but they’ve spent hours and hours of time Knowing the file, working on that opening statement.

So don’t kid yourself to think the great people, the good lawyers, the trial lawyers with all this experience, they don’t write it down. Yes, they do. And they work on it and they think about it. And I can tell you from my experience with Mr. Keenan, that was his greatest strength was being able to sit almost in a meditative state and just think about a case.

And digest it and mull it over and think about it and think about it. And then he would make notes on his cell phone. And because he trained himself to do that, right? He’s a busy guy. He goes and blows and does all kinds of stuff. That is his superpower because that is the thing other people are [00:15:00] not doing is stopping and thinking and walking through that and mulling it over multiple times instead of just that one time.

Or that maybe two times take the time to write things down. Trust me. It is everybody’s got to write things down. Greatest authors, right? There’s drafts, there’s manuscripts, right? So don’t skip that step of trial prep and organization of just writing things down. All right. We started off talking about trial organization.

I got a little bit off the sidetrack and opening statements, but the episode is about just being intentional about creating a system that helps you prioritize all the tasks for trial. Delegate the ones that you don’t like, right? Find somebody to help you with those ones that you don’t like so that you can really fine tune, give it the best possible outcome, put in the best possible work that you’ve got your best product.

That’s what trial is about and not winging it [00:16:00] and not being rushed because you waited too late. Because you let deadlines rule your prioritization and not your own thoughtful process. So, I hope this was helpful. If you enjoy the podcast, please rate and review on your favorite platform. Send it to folks that you know that may be approaching a trial or have questions.

For example, I got a call the other day about somebody who said we’re thinking about doing our own focus groups in house. Could you fill the call? And I said, I can, but I have, I think at least six episodes on my podcast about DIY focus groups. So maybe start there. There’s a free download. So anyhow, there’s tons of resources.

A lot of them are on the website, larricklawfirm.com podcast. And until next time, thank [00:17:00] you.

How much power does self-perception hold over our actions, and what role does it play in a courtroom scenario? How critical is the reconciliation of dual identities, especially when it comes to legal proceedings? If these questions intrigue you, then this episode is perfect for you. Join me as I discuss the profound impact of client self-image on case testimony, how a client’s perception of themselves can significantly alter their behavior, and how jurors’ immediate judgments can adversely affect a case. I’m also offering gentle strategies that attorneys can adopt to tackle these issues. 

Moving on to the realm of dual identities, we unravel how they can emerge in legal cases and their implications, including a case study about a client who had to grapple with two contrasting identities, and the eventual resolution that led to positive outcomes. We break down the confusion between identity and reputation, and why self-awareness is important. Join me for this illuminating discussion that unlocks the psychological dimensions of trial preparation. 

In this episode, you will hear:

• Client self-image and testimony impact
• Navigating dual identities and perceptions in a legal case
• How self-awareness and reputation can become twisted up in our minds

Follow and Review:

We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.

Supporting Resources:

“You Are a Badass” by Jen Sincero: https://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Badass%C2%AE-Doubting-Greatness/dp/0762447699

Winning Case Preparation: Understanding Jury Bias: https://www.amazon.com/Winning-Case-Preparation-Understanding-Jury/dp/B07L1X7XST 

Episode Credits:

If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.

Episode Transcript:

Elizabeth Larrick: Hello, and welcome back to the podcast, Trial Lawyer Prep, a podcast dedicated to trial lawyers getting ready for mediations, trials, and just trying to prepare cases a little bit better than last time.

I’m your host, Elizabeth Larrick, and [00:01:00] today’s episode, we are going to piggyback off of some information, some things that we heard about an episode that I had with Joseph Rosenfeld. That was episode 90, where we talked about lawyers and self image and ways that we can think about our image and basically use it to advocate.

But what I want to talk about today is more about our clients self image and perception. How they’re perceiving themselves, how they believe others are perceiving them, and how sometimes this change between their own identity and what they think other people are perceiving and expecting them cause them to change.

So why would we talk about this? I am sure that we have probably all encountered some folks with some flip flopping going on in our lives, but specifically when we talk about this in a case, [00:02:00] we’re talking about how we have folks who will do things that can impact their testimony. And specifically, we’re talking also about how we have jurors, and they are going to instantly judge Our clients based on what they see and then what they hear, and they’re trying to spot the phony, spot the lie.

And we know this to be true. There’s lots of focus group research. I’ve obviously had this confirmed in my research with focus groups. But also there are many other top trial lawyers. Who’ve done research and written books. The book that comes to mind right off the bat is Winning Case Preparation, Understanding Jury Bias, where they talk about, yeah, jurors, focus groupers, they’re trying to find anything possibly wrong or anything where they can say, oh, but you know, There it is.

That’s the thing I would have done differently, right? That person should have gone and gotten a second [00:03:00] opinion because I would definitely have done or that person Should have honked their horn. They should have been slowing down, right? That’s what I would have done. That person They really should report that behavior to HRE medium.

This goes on and on and basically it’s called many different things defensive attribution Negative attribution. Basically, there’s no way that I would have gotten caught in this situation or this crash or this Doctors, crosshairs, because I’d have done things differently. Your person should try to find that negative thing, that, that defensive thing that your client has done wrong.

And I will say, obviously I hear a lot of lawyers that worry about the way our clients look and dress because again, before even people testify, jurors are really scrutinizing what people look like and with the help of our social media. Really turning and emphasizing how people look automatically almost dictates how you are, right, [00:04:00] what that expectation is, so amplified in our regular normal lives.

So today we’re going to take a different look at this topic by really looking at it from our client’s point of view, and then also how we as lawyers can address this issue, this flip flopping. In testimony preparation, whether that testimony be for deposition or for trial, and in a very gentle way. So, we could spend many episodes about what a client should wear or not wear, and we are not doing that today.

Instead, we’re really going to be focusing on what’s going on in our client’s mind, those changes that clients are making in that testimony, in some of that behavior, based on perceptions that they believe others are having. Now, I will say from the outside, this is not every single client. There are many people walking around in this world who declare who they are, they act exactly [00:05:00] like they say, and they’re unafraid of what others think or say about them.

And you know what you’re going to get every time with this person? And I celebrate them, right? Like, I think we all can appreciate whether those people are positive or negative. We know what we’re gonna get. That’s great. That our little minds don’t have to work too hard. But the rest of the world doesn’t do this, right?

These are folks walking around every day who struggle with and conform to be what, who do what others think or want them to be. And there are tons, like as a sidebar, there are tons of research and books about self awareness and think about personal development books on this whole thing of self awareness and identity and reputation and conforming and how that can kind of get a little twisted up in our minds.

Lots of great books out there. If you are thinking, huh, [00:06:00] maybe I change who I am, like there are lots of great books. I recommend a book I am rereading probably for the 10th time because I’ve had this book for a very long time. You are a badass by Jen Sincero. Great book. She’s got several out. This one’s kind of her first one.

So check it out. It’s a fun one. I love her style of writing. Back to what we’re talking about. So let me say we are not trying to quote unquote fix people here, right? We’re going to leave that stuff to professionals and you may in fact start having this conversation with your client and realize, oh boy, this is we need the help of a professional here because it’s beyond me asking some simple questions.

And just talking to them about where this all came from. And that’s okay. You may, as long as you have the awareness, it’s okay to stop and get that person the professional help that they may need. This has a hundred percent happened to me when I was preparing a client in a [00:07:00] wrongful death case, she had developed some severe behavior changes and lots of misperceptions about herself, and to the point that she was really going to, her testimony was going to endanger her case, and more importantly, she had two minor children and her kids’ case.

Right. So wrongful death, right. These folks needed to recover money to be able to live because her husband had passed away. So, we stopped what we were doing, we got her some help, we also got some other people into the case to help the jury understand where some of this stuff may come from. Because again, changing people’s thoughts and minds and beliefs can be a challenge.

It takes time. Lots of time. I can tell from personal experience. So, getting back to this episode, We’re really talking about bringing awareness to the situation for you, so that [00:08:00] you can understand more, and also for the client. You may have people who, you start to have this conversation and they think, yeah, absolutely, I have done X, Y, Z, and I found that I’ve just pretty much started doing that every time because people will tell me, oh, hey, I thought X about you, I thought Y about you.

And sometimes these changes are positive or negative. And what we want to do again, have a simple conversation with folks, a curious conversation, bring some awareness to it, and then also, again, thinking how it’s going to impact the case and some, some general ways to talk about it so that maybe we can have a little bit of breakthrough when it comes to testimony, right?

So remember, we’re always talking about testimony and how we want our clients, we really want them to be themselves. So. What problem am I talking about here? I am talking about people who will change their testimony by using [00:09:00] different words. Or different language than they normally would, right? These are people who off the top of my head, I’m thinking, they think they have to talk more professionally, right?

They have to have fancy words because if you’re talking to a lawyer and are they going to court, so they got to use better different words. And it’s just like, okay, or they change how they dress. We talked about this, right? How they would normally dress based on people’s perceptions. Sometimes people dress fancier.

Sometimes people want to dress down. I’ve had it go both ways where people want to dress up. So they look like, Oh, people will think that I am wealthy. People say, I don’t want people to know that I have money. So I’m going to dress down. I’m like, okay, we got people who just change their behavior or demeanor.

And so what I’m thinking of here is people who either become total pushovers. Or become completely defensive and stubborn. I also have people who we can probably all think of somebody in our case files or in our history, being a lawyers who’ve definitely [00:10:00] lied to try to make their case look better. and stretch the truth to exaggerate just a little bit to make things look worse.

All right, some changes are positive and some changes are negative. Most of the ones I listed are negative, but as a positive example, and this again may ring true for several of you, obviously it’s from my personal experience, when I became a new lawyer. I, of course, absolutely did not want to look dumb or like I didn’t know what I was doing.

So in that vein, when I had a court hearing, I would just go over and above preparation. And the point of calling the court’s office, talking to staff, making sure what the do’s and the don’ts are, calling other lawyers who’ve been in front of this court to get their experience, studying the things I’ve filed ad nauseum, and showing 30 minutes early.

Mostly [00:11:00] these are positive changes. Oh, these are, sounds like you’d be really prepared. But in the end, some of this stuff is just a giant waste of time, because I should have been using my time, like, crafting on what I would say, and how I would say it, and what the counter arguments may be. Because once I got in there, of course I was early, and I followed all the rules, but then I knew exactly what was in my motions, but not so well at being able to articulate.

What I needed the court to hear. Positive, but again, in the long run, a giant waste of time because I wasn’t working on what I should say. So let’s talk about another example that I have that we’ll use throughout the rest of this episode. I had a client, back in the day, she was a female client in her fifties.

She had raised four kids on her own, single mom, worked several jobs. She gets in a pretty, pretty significant car crash. And as we’re going through the case, Get it from the very front end and [00:12:00] negotiations fail, so we have to file and have litigation and throughout the time she’s starting to treat staff different than she treats me.

She treats staff very bad, like very negative, is very gruff, is very short, is very upset with them, but I never get any of this behavior myself. I get this nice, glowing, responsive, gets things done, wants to give me her time, she’s always available for calls, right? What gives? And I didn’t 100 percent know what, why, I didn’t really know why.

I just knew, I’m wondering which is, which is the real person or identity. Am I just getting somebody who’s super sugarcoating me for some reason? And so we sat down to have a conversation for deposition and she’s gonna give her deposition. And as I ask her this question, Hey, trying to feel out a little bit about who’s going to show up at the [00:13:00] deposition.

And it turns out she is this gruff mama bear bulldozer 90 percent of the time, because she has this perception. That people think she’s weak because she’s a woman, she’s also very petite, and she basically has had to fight and advocate constantly for herself and her kids for years, so that just became who she would be to people on the outside.

And so her plan for this deposition was to basically tear this opposing counsel, this defense lawyer, a new one, you know, she’s ready to go in there and just like throw down. And again, people had underestimated her, some of the jobs she’d worked at, she were very midden, most of her other co workers were men, so she had to basically be tough and rough, and so we talked about that.

We took it apart, okay, so let’s take it down both roads. Let’s be defensive. What does that mean? To you, right? Cause I don’t, it’s different for different people. [00:14:00] I really want to know what’s in her brain and she’s, I want to take jabs, right? I’m going to be short. I’m going to be gruff. I’m not going to give them an inch.

I’m not going to limit my answers basically. And I said, okay, what’s the other side? Articulate about herself and her injuries and the impact, her worries, her frustrations. Right, letting people learn more about her, um, versus being, you know, basically very closed off. And then I turn the conversation to why is this important?

Because at the end of the day, while the defense lawyer’s asking you those questions and there’s a judge involved here, it’s jurors that make the decision. It’s jurors that will be looking and deciding. And they are trying to psychoanalyze who you are, why you’re here, what is real, and what is fake, what is a lie.

And [00:15:00] what does it generally mean if someone’s being defensive, right? You got something to hide. But the cool thing is, here we are, sitting here today, and you get to choose. How you want to show up and who you want to be, who you want the jurors to know, and we, sounds like we spent a ton of time on this. We really didn’t spend a lot of time.

Again, I had very good rapport with her. She treated me very nicely and Having me be curious about it and asking open ended questions and understanding more really helped her then be able to take that turn of, Oh, okay, jurors might, this might damage like what the jurors would see when I limit it. And so she ultimately showed up as herself, her true identity, right?

And she was able to articulate and answer [00:16:00] questions and really lay it all on the table. And very proud of her. And I think that she was proud of herself. And of course, she definitely got defensive here and there. But that happens. We can’t ask for perfection. I think it significantly helped the ability for us to get the case settled without having to do a deposition because she was articulate and she explained things and she had to speak for a lot of other people.

She had like two kids in the car and her sister who was struggling with some other things. She was a very good advocate for herself and other people in the car and I think that significantly helped. Let’s just break this down basically. What happened here, which was, I was seeing two clients. I saw a client who she was to me, smart, funny, thoughtful, caring mom, hardworking, and the client who she was to Steph, right?

Basically this bulldozer who got what she want when she wanted it. She [00:17:00] got stuff done at the cost of the polite, the niceties that you would expect. And of course, what I wanted was the smart, funny, thoughtful, caring person, not this bulldozer. But I had to ask the question to really determine which one was her true identity.

Because she could have been people pleasing and sugarcoating me for some reason, right? I, who knows? But I had to ask that question. And Because it turned out she had created this reputation of being a bulldozer based on perceptions of weakness and experiences of being treated weak and getting pushed around so that, like I said, she created this reputation, like she took action, she changed who she was, right, to get shit done.

So. In my example, I had questions that I asked, which were framed around events that I saw and [00:18:00] experienced directly. Right? Hey, you’re treating Rebecca, the receptionist, rough a couple of times around here, but hand off to me and it’s great. So I had very specific events and experiences that I could draw on.

And then she had to basically answer. I know other people can hide it better. They can hide their flip flop better or. just hide themselves from you altogether, which is also what I hear a lot from lawyers. Hey, I’ve got this client, I can’t get them to open up. And I, there’s a lot of times we get people who they just want to show us their professional self, what they think you, lawyer, expect them in a client.

So you may have to ask a general question, right? Hey, I’m going to talk, I’m going to ask you a couple of random questions. When you walk into a room of strangers, or you walk into a new situation, a mall, a grocery store, we’re keeping it super general, but we’re walking into a new situation for them. You ever feel like you [00:19:00] have to do something different or change what you do because what others are expecting of you?

Okay, tell me about that. Ask for more information. And then again, once we find out more, how does that feel? Then you can take the turn and say, okay, let me tell you why we’re talking about this term. And you can start with why we’re talking about this from the very beginning. Okay? So you don’t have to hide the purpose of the conversation.

It may help. It may not help. Again, when I’m preparing folks, sometimes. I don’t explain things well. It’s all about communication and sometimes you got to explain things twice. It’s okay. I’m sure people had to explain things that they, you don’t know about twice. So don’t worry about having to explain things with a purpose twice as long as you’re getting where you’re going.

Let’s just back up a little bit and take it from the top, which would be first things first is to identify if you have a client with a self awareness, self image issue. We’re talking about folks that are That are flip [00:20:00] flopping, who they are, behavior based on perceptions, expectations, they’ve held them.

Right, some of this will be very obvious, as my example was. Or people who lie and stretch the truth because they think that’s what’s going to get me more money. Now, some people hide it way better. Either way, it’s that flip flop. Right, that’s where, just look for some kind of flip flop going on with that person.

Once you figure out, oh, yep, that person, it may or may not be there, but hey, We’re going to take 10 minutes and have this conversation and simple conversation, but you do need to move to the next step, which is mold and craft your questions that you’re gonna step you can either use a direct experience that you have with the client or You can do the general question like we talked about Hey, when you go to the grocery store, or you got to go to happy hour, you know, it’s a general question Strangers, you don’t know any of these people, you know, you ever do anything or feel yourself doing something different because you expect others, right?

I think you have that [00:21:00] expectation. If you’ve got to give an example, come up with a simple personal example. Third step is always ask for information. Just follow up, learn a little more, dig a little more into what’s in there. And then the last part, which is, hey, at the end of the day, jurors are going to be watching and listening and judging.

They’re going to spot a phony. They’re going to try and spot lies, they’re going to try and spot people who are pandering to them. And any level of funny business will cause them to shut it down. So we want you to be yourself, to be your true self. And you may find folks who 100 percent know they changed their behavior.

Totally. And it may not be a problem for them. Some people may struggle with that they do that and they may not like it. Okay, so there’s all kinds of gamut you could run here. We know what our purpose is, which is to talk about jurors judging, watching, spotting, the pandering. And the goal is just to open that self awareness door just wide enough to gain [00:22:00] some insight into the jurors and the purpose of the jurors and the impact on their case.

We want that true person, their true identity to show up, to be who they are, right? Because that’s what jurors do. They want to be able to see who you are and respect that they’re getting the truth from you. Even if it means your client may not be the shining bright star, they may truly be a bulldozer.

But if they’re being a bulldozer and the juror knows it, they’re going to say, That person, that person’s being themselves and I trust that they are and I respect that they’re being themselves. Because I will hear many times. People will say, your client must be nice, your client must be likable. Jurors don’t give money to people who are not likable.

Listen, you can teach [00:23:00] any person to be nice and to be likable. A lot of serial killers were nice and likable people. But they couldn’t be trusted. I think what people, what jurors really want is a person that they can trust they’re getting the truth from and then respect. Because that’s the person the jurors will allow money for and punish the lying deceitful defendants.

A little bit of a soapbox moment here. Because Again, you can teach people to be nice, but having somebody be vulnerable and trust those jurors, it’s a two way street here, right? And that’s half the battle. Sometimes we have to build people’s confidence up to be themselves, right? And sometimes we got to tear down that confidence so that they’ll be vulnerable to be themselves.

But that’s who you want to show up because [00:24:00] that’s what the truth is. And again, jurors, we trust and respect that. Because we know the other side is not showing up. Being truthful, there’s a lie somewhere in there. Jumping off the soap. Okay, I hope that this episode helps you tackle this issue. Again, we’re looking at folks who are doing that flip flop, who are doing some kind of change or machination.

And again, we just want them They’re having a struggle here to be themselves, or they’re outright trying to be someone else. So they will be likable. You can spot it. Also, you can spot it if you got it as well. Think about this as well. Sometimes we do this ourselves, I will tell you. I 100 percent do this, right?

Gave that first example. I still find myself doing this. Sometimes it’s hard to be truthful because I’m a recovering people peacemaker, so there you go. Alright, thank you all so much. I hope this episode was helpful. And if you have questions or something just did not make sense, please don’t hesitate to reach out.

My email will be in the show notes. And until next time, thank [00:25:00] you.

Unlock the secret of success in the courtroom: thorough client preparation. This episode is a wake-up call for all attorneys who underestimate the importance of client deposition or role at mediation. We unravel why investing your time in understanding the client’s mindset can turn the tables in your favor and cement trust. The true value of a lawyer isn’t just represented by the number of cases they successfully close, but also by their ability to prioritize client experiences.

We also devolve into how attorneys can efficiently prepare their clients for depositions and mediations. It’s a harsh reality that due to insufficient guidance from their lawyers, clients often resort to platforms like YouTube for answers. We put a full stop to this common occurrence, stressing the necessity of having at least two preparatory meetings. By taking control of their cases and ensuring a smooth client experience, we, as lawyers, can significantly bolster their reputation and increase their case value. Stride into this episode as we unveil the keys to successful client preparation and testimony.

In this episode, you will hear:

• The importance of client preparation and perception
• How lawyers can better prepare clients for cases
• How to avoid YouTube searches from clients and ensure client satisfaction

Follow and Review:

We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.

Supporting Resources:

Do you have a question? Or an idea for a podcast episode? Please email Elizabeth directly: elizabeth@larricklawfirm.com 

Episode Credits:

If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.

Episode Transcript:

Elizabeth Larrick: Hello, and welcome back to the podcast, Trial Lawyer Prep. I’m your host, Elizabeth Larrick, and I’m glad you’re here with me.

This is a podcast designed and dedicated to lawyers trying cases, personal injury, employment law. Business law, maybe a little bit of criminal law too in there, but [00:01:00] basically we have set up this podcast, I’ve set up this podcast to talk to you about preparing people to testify, how to get the best testimony possible, how to use focus groups, to dive into what the jury is going to think, to find holes in your case, to find blind spots that you may have, We have some folks that come in along the way as experts to help us.

We just heard one in last episode talk about our image and gave us a few tips about things that we can wear. Definitely sometimes fun things to talk about. Today is a little different. We’re going to talk about how are you preparing your client. Now I have been on the road a little bit for the past couple of weeks doing some speaking engagements and working with some clients in different places.

And anytime I go to a speaking engagement, I always like to have conversations with folks and just ask, Hey, how are you guys doing stuff or how are things [00:02:00] working for you? What’s not working for you? And I was a little shocked that so many conversations that I had with attorneys telling me, We just have generally one meeting with folks.

We tell them to tell the truth and say yes or no. It’s okay to say I don’t know or don’t remember. That’s pretty much the gamut that we run. We really don’t need to spend too much more time with folks. And it really got to me thinking like, huh, am I the only one out there doing this phases and steps and multiple meetings?

No, I know that I’m not because I just taught a class of witness preparation and I know that there are other people out there doing kind of a multi phase, multi plan. But that led me to what maybe we should be talking like. Asking some questions here. And so that’s what this podcast is really going to be about.

It’s asking some questions. My first question was like, do you have a plan? Because when I was having these conversations with lawyers and again, I’m just being [00:03:00] curious, Hey, everybody’s got different constraints to different firms and times and expenses, and you guys decide how to spend your time. But really what struck me was.

Most people don’t have a plan at all, and the crap that they’re doing with clients. And let’s just run the gamut here. Deposition testimony prep, motion prep, mediation prep really doesn’t follow a plan. It’s just we need to do some kind of call to tell people where to go and what to wear and really what’s going to happen.

But it doesn’t really sound like you do any preparation either. So are you having a plan for preparing folks? And do you have a plan to prepare yourself? Cause what that makes me think of is you aren’t really prepared to talk about the facts with folks or case weaknesses that you’re really just hoping for the best.

Just hope for the best. And [00:04:00] a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure on this client’s nice enough, I think that they’re going to present fine. It should just be fine. Which is telling me like, wow, either there’s just not a lot of stock and not a lot of value in a client deposition or a client role at mediation or, and a lot of times I will tell you from my experience working as a solo, sure.

There were times before I was doing multi step prep with people that, yeah, people would get in there. And say things that were damaging to the case, and they would not follow what I had advised them to do, and it was really frustrating, and it was like they were bombing their case, which, you know, as a personal injury lawyer, you can’t let any kid die.

Piece of value go down. You need every piece of value to stack up when you’re fighting the insurance companies. I get it. We can be really jaded about having a bad experience or multiple bad [00:05:00] experiences, but I just go back to, let’s just look at this. Did we have a plan? Did we cover the full plan and did we spend time ourselves getting ourselves ready and what we need to talk about?

Did we spend time listening and talking with the client? Uh, on multiple occasions, just make sure we know what is in that brain or what’s going on inside that brain. The other thing that I heard, because of course, a lot of people that I talk with know that, oh, you like to do days and days of preparation.

And they say, my clients are just, they’re just not sophisticated people. This is just, this is the prep they need. Just tell them to tell the truth. And again, that led to me more questions of, are you, is this just coming out of laziness? You’re just putting this label on people. Do you really think your clients are dumb?

Is that really it? Hey, these people just are dumb. When you tell me they’re unsophisticated, that’s what I assume. They’re not [00:06:00] smart enough to understand what a deposition is and questions and preparing for that, which then of course leads me to the question, do you care? Oh, of course. But really do you?

Because if things are important. You spend time on it and you spend money as well, right? So if you want to find out what’s important to somebody, look where they spend their time and their money, right? That’s will tell you what’s important. And the thing is, if you don’t spend your time preparing your client to fulfill their role, testifying to fill their role at mediation, and they may not have a big role at mediation.

Um, but you know, they Again, I’ve fallen in all into the same traps that most people have. When I came into practice, I didn’t know what I was supposed to prepare people for. And I did, Hey, here’s a video, watch this and follow this. Or we send this letter out, or just [00:07:00] tell the client not to talk at mediation.

And what I found was really disappointing. Like I was disappointed just generally, they were disappointed. Everybody’s just really frustrated and there’s a lot of lost trust. And once I started to really sit down and spend a little extra time with people, especially like for mediation preparation, and they were able to in that moment at mediation, when they’re getting hammered by the mediator, they’re hearing something that.

I’m cringing and I’m just thinking, all right, I hope they remembered what I said when the mediator leaves the room and they turned to you and they said, wow, that’s exactly what you told me they were going to say. And I was totally prepared for that bad news or I was totally prepared for that badgering.

So wow, thank you. Like absolutely. And that’s really what we want to do is stay ahead of the surprises. But if you don’t, if you don’t [00:08:00] spend that time on those important things, it’s gonna end up costing you in the end. It’s gonna either cross value to the case. It’s gonna definitely cost you in referrals because that client’s just gonna say, yeah, we, the case got done, but boy howdy, it was miserable, and The other thing that I also hear from lawyers many times is, you know, they just blame their behavior on, this is the insurance company, or this is opposing counsel.

This is just the way that it is. And from the very jumpstart, and why I’m so passionate about preparing people for deposition and testimony and feeling that this is a place where people fulfill their role in their case and work through some of the crap, mental crap that they’ve been put through when you go through an injury or losing a job.

I believe that there was a better way to serve our clients. I knew it didn’t have to be that we had to blame other people. I knew [00:09:00] that there was something that we could do to take control to at least there are things that we can’t control, but there are things we can do to make people’s experience.

Better to help them through this crappy time or this crappy problem. That’s most of the time. This is just a crappy problem. We have to deal with and that’s really what led me to spending so much time and hours learning the witness prep and being uncomfortable trying something new and taking extra time and but what happened was I I saw almost immediate results, right?

This is something where I feel like, Hey, this is not like, you know, doing social media marketing and see in six months and you hope it works out. You know, your return on investment is almost immediate. And that’s, what’s so fantastic is you got to believe in people and you got to believe. They’re, you know, you’re quote unquote [00:10:00] unsophisticated people, they’re folks, they are getting through the world, they got house payments, car payments, they got kids, they got other problems, just like you do, and guess what, they solve them and move along the way, they’re going to be able to figure out how to navigate a deposition, it may be a little bit different preparation style for you, but hey, that just helps you grow when you face situations like that.

The other thing I always want to remind people of is. The number one social media for kids 13 all the way up past 65 is YouTube So if you aren’t taking the time to walk people through preparing for deposition preparing for mediation They’re gonna go online and they’re going to try and find answers. I don’t care how sophisticated or unsophisticated they want to know.

They want to be prepared because nobody wants to be humiliated. Nobody wants to be [00:11:00] embarrassed. And so, yeah, they’re definitely going to. And trust me, the preparation and the information on YouTube about depositions is not what you want your clients to be looking at. It’s that sit and suffer. Talk about this.

Often that makes me cringe when I see, okay, this is just going to be a terrible experience. You’re going to suck at it and you’re just going to have to sit and suffer through this and say as little as possible. Oh, that just makes me so disappointed. But I get it, that makes it really easy for us as lawyers, doesn’t it?

It does. And whatever fear we have, we just get to stuff it into those four instructions. Tell the truth. Say yes or no. Do not offer anything besides yes or no. It is 100 percent appropriate to say, I don’t know, or I don’t remember. Hey, now listen, there’s some good things in there, but let me, if that’s all we’re telling folks, which is pretty much a lot of the information on YouTube, Along with some really awesome deposition testimony, which I encourage you, if you have [00:12:00] time, to go see what people are looking at.

It’s pretty entertaining. But you don’t want people, you don’t want your clients doing that behavior, and that’s my point. Don’t, don’t let somebody else prepare your client, because it’s going to be YouTube and it’s not going to be what you want. At the end of the day, if you don’t have a plan, But you do care about what happens to your clients in deposition and in mediations and you do want to have The right case value and you do want to have clients that send you people and refer people then I just challenge it It’s just a very simple challenge.

If you’re sending your clients an email or a letter with instructions About the deposition or and again when I say instructions, I’m not saying like where to go Yes, please send them a letter or email telling them where to go at what time very important But if you’re sending instructions just pause take that letter set up a phone call set up a zoom call That’s even better and just have a conversation about what [00:13:00] the instructions you have in your letter and then ask them if they have questions Right and then have one other meeting.

My challenge is just have two meetings with folks just And again, this is not scary stuff. You know, these people, you know, what depositions are. And just see if you’re going to have a little bit better result, because I guarantee you that second meeting, you’re going to learn a whole lot more about what your client thinks, how they feel, and the expectations that they have of you and of that deposition, and they’re going to bring you a lot more questions.

And they’re going to feel a lot more prepared spending that extra meeting, 30, 45 minutes with you. Now, obviously you want to go above and beyond the challenge. It’s been extra, you know, spend a whole hour with somebody in that second meeting. Take a moment yourself and prepare, go through some of the things in the case, be able to have a conversation with them.[00:14:00] 

What I find is if you don’t have a plan, what generally ends up happening is, You jump from one to ten you go from here’s the deposition you’re gonna get a lot of questions It’s always answer yes or no little information and then you jump to a ten and you start role playing They’re gonna say this about you and they’re gonna ask this question and people are just like whoa What they can’t it’s so much information.

They can’t process it and jumping in straight into roleplay They can’t process what, there’s no context, so therefore it just flies out the window. It doesn’t stick in the brain. We want things, we want your instructions, we want your, your help, your instructions, your help, your thoughts. They want all those things, but if there’s no context, it just, it’s not sticky.

It just flies in one ear and out the other, right? But if you provide a little bit of context. Have that conversation with [00:15:00] them. Have that first meeting. Hey, just want to go over some of this stuff. We’re gonna meet one more time, but I want these things to marinate with you. Sweet. We have more questions.

It’s not a problem. And give them that opportunity then to talk just a little bit more than they would in that 30 to 45 minute one solo meeting. All right. Now if you’re folks in my audience thinking, gosh, Elizabeth, I’m the person in the audience that does that multiple step thing and prep that you talk about, and we do talk about expectations, and we do sit down and help organize, and we use visuals and kudos to you.

Just know that you’re, you’re standing out there in the 10%, I think about 80 percent of folks. Don’t have a plan. And again, this is my personal research, which, you know, I love research. It’s my focus groups are about. Just get a little pat on the back, but also just know, keep at it. I know that it can be draining and I know that it can be frustrating.

Trust me. This is not smooth sailing. There’s always going to be challenges. People are [00:16:00] challenging, but. Again, the return on investment here, investing in your client, investing in that relationship, it’s going to be instant. Even if things still don’t go as well, trust me, your client’s going to know you tried, you were there, you wanted the best for them, and you wanted them to fulfill their role, right?

I always talk about it that way. So people know you have a place here. It’s not just a bunch of lawyers pushing paper and forcing you into situations like settlements or trials. I hope this Episode was helpful. Again, it was just one of those things that in my last couple of weeks in my travels and in talking to people, I thought, wow, maybe I ought to just stop and have a conversation about this because it’s real basic.

It really is. Of course, I live in a world where this is what I do. So. Should I be shocked? I’m not really sure, but I’m always going to be curious, right? And I’m always going to be asking people how they do it because I want to know [00:17:00] there may be some nugget or some tip or some little thing that somebody else does that works wonders on folks.

And that’s what I want to do because I want to learn more as much as I can from everybody out there. But also again, pass on what I know to help you be better lawyers, to help your clients better. Build those relationships, get better referrals, build that case value in there. If you have An idea for an episode or a question, please don’t hesitate to email me if you’d like to be in the podcast.

I would love to have you in the podcast. As you can tell this year, I’ve really focused on having people on as much as humanly possible. Although we did have a little break for our grief week, our grief month, I should say. Uh, a couple episodes on grief, but if you have anything, please don’t hesitate to reach out to me.

I promise that I’ll answer your email. It’s Elizabeth at Lyric Law Firm. Of course, the email is always in the show notes. Thank you so much for being an audience member. I really appreciate it. To [00:18:00] help other people find the podcast, please rate and review on your podcast listening platform or find. And until next time, thank you so much.

Did you know that your wardrobe could be the key to professional success? Get ready to unlock the powerful potential of personal style on our latest episode with image consultant Joseph Rosenfeld.

Joseph sheds light on his personal journey, revealing how a chance encounter with the Official Preppy Handbook at 15 shaped his unique sense of style and in turn, his approach to consulting. He takes us through his experiences at Neiman Marcus in Chicago, where his interactions with lawyers and wealthy clients refined his skills. He also shares the secret sauce to his client interactions – helping them find their integrity in personal and professional spaces.

We dive headfirst into the art of dressing for the courtroom. Joseph underscores the critical role of storytelling in fashion, the challenges lawyers face keeping up with changing trends, and the importance of understanding the courtroom culture. We unravel the theatrics of court appearances and discuss why it’s crucial for lawyers to be relatable and believable. Joseph also challenges some antiquated advice on the type of appearance that lawyers still adhere to, providing fresh perspectives on dressing for success.

We also explore the immense power of personal image in the legal profession. Joseph draws upon his expertise to explain how an individual’s personality and style can be harnessed to create a look that reflects their self-image. He discusses how the right colors and styles can sow seeds of credibility and trust for potential clients. We also delve into the complexities of keeping up-to-date with fashion trends and identifying archetypes that best suit a lawyer’s personality and style. Finally, we touch on the potential of a well-curated image to change perceptions, even for those with a tarnished reputation. So, gear up for an enlightening discussion and tune in now!

In this episode, you will hear:

• Dressing challenges for trial lawyers
• The significance of multiple impressions 
• Theatrics of court and the need for lawyers to be relatable and believable
• Understanding personality and style for creating a custom look to portray credibility and trustworthiness
• Discovering fashion trends to create a powerful, confident look for litigators

Follow and Review:

We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.

Supporting Resources:

If you want to learn more about Joseph Rosenfeld please connect with him on LinkedIn or visit his website https://www.josephrosenfeld.com/

Episode Credits:

If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.

Episode Transcript:

Elizabeth Larrick: Hello and welcome back to the podcast. I’m your host, Elizabeth Larrick.

And today we have a guest with us. I was super excited to have this guest come on. We met on LinkedIn, probably one of my first exchanges on LinkedIn, but I was [00:01:00] super intrigued. I watched his content and I said, Joseph, you need to come on. So Joseph Rosenfeld is here to talk to us. He is an image consultant for litigators.

So welcome to the podcast. 

Joseph Rosenfeld: Thank you so much. It’s really wonderful to be with you, Elizabeth, and to share some cool stuff with your listeners. 

Elizabeth Larrick: When you first reached out, I was intrigued, but I was also, I’m not gonna lie. I was put back because sometimes we get told what to wear and told how to look and it can be so frustrating.

And then I listened to you and your video and I was like, Oh, this is totally my jam. Because like you talked about the inside reflecting outside. And I was like, Oh, This is it. So I’m excited and I know my audience is going to appreciate this. So stick around here, folks, but Joseph, tell us, how’d you get into this?

Joseph Rosenfeld: That’s a whole other podcast episode, but [00:02:00] in brief, I was 15 years old and discovered the official preppy handbook. So if you’re carbon dating me, that puts me back to being a teenager in the mid 1980s. I suffered a tremendous amount of bullying. Kids used to tell me how ugly I was, and I believed it for all my childhood.

And rather than try to do something dire and irreversible, the official preppy handbook became my odd salvation from that I really had an epiphany, which was, I may never be hot or sexy or tall or gorgeous or whatever, but I could have style. And if I could show people what my style was, I wouldn’t only look stylish.

I would reveal who I truly am from the inside out and it worked the first thing that I, where I knew it definitely was working and I was onto [00:03:00] something was people immediately almost stopped telling me how ugly they thought I was. They were wrong, but they just kids can be cruel. It’s amazing. You could turn off that cruelty and the rest from that point of being 15 And all these years later is history.

I’ve just been working on my hypothesis ever since. And every single client who I work with is another experiment and is another teacher of mine. In many ways, I’m the student and my clients are constantly teaching me who they are. And internally, I’m constantly learning more about myself and who I am to become.

And those are the things that come together and make me Uh, sought after expert in my field, 

Elizabeth Larrick: it sounds like then we could say your passion started early, 

Joseph Rosenfeld: Barry. 

Elizabeth Larrick: So when did you really make the turn [00:04:00] of, wait a second, I can help people with this. Or was this something people said, they just looked at you and you were like, I need your help.

You’ve got your style down. Help me with mine. 

Joseph Rosenfeld: Back in the day, I quit college and got a job working at Neiman Marcus in Chicago. I was the youngest sales associate that they had put out on the selling floor in 1989 and I was not even quite 20 years old at that time. The store was open for seven years, the types of folks who came into my department.

I was stationed in the men’s sportswear department at the time. So I worked with men chiefly at that point, it was remarkable who they were, because. Chicago is a big law town and I had lots of lawyers and scions of wealthy families and traders from the mercantile exchange, board of options, board [00:05:00] of trade, you name it, all kinds of people with money coming in and out and so on and coming into the store.

So I developed a clientele that was very loyal very early on and it shocked me because I was green. I’m wearing an olive jacket today. I guess I’ve stayed green all my life. There was so much that I didn’t know, but I had taste. In the beginning, and then that was innate, but then the, the knowledge that really took me into making a difference with people came shortly thereafter.

And it really came by learning about people and who they told me that they were and who they wanted to be and how they wanted to position themselves, which is a personal branding statement there, positioning themselves. But it was very much also about who they wanted to be. in their life? What kind Person of [00:06:00] integrity did they want to be?

And I worked with lots of lawyers all through that dozen years of my early career. And that continued on once I hung a shingle and said, okay, I’m an image consultant and I’m working independently. So all told, I’ve been working in this way for over 30 years now. And it’s been an incredible journey and a ride because people have opened up so much to share.

A lot about who they are and how they want to show up in all different settings and contexts. And the lawyers that I’ve worked with have been some of my greatest teachers, honestly, because they could be in so many different contexts. So, Places, all kinds of different scenarios. Is it a courtroom trial?

Is it an arbitration meeting? Is it a settlement meeting? Is it a client meeting? Is there something going on with colleagues? What’s happening at networking and bar [00:07:00] association activities, so many different things. And then just being out socially and social networking and just having private time with loved ones and dear friends.

And how does All of that kind of showing up in the world impact a person’s image and brand and style, and it just goes on and on. So it’s a long explanation, but it just goes to show how deep things can be in terms of the interactions that we have. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Absolutely. And I’m sure 30 years is a long time, but even just looking at that 30 years, there’s been so many leaps and changes with professions and with style and with social media, just people are seen, whereas before it was.

Like you said, especially for litigators, it’s, we’re showing up to the courthouse and now it’s, I have a lot of lawyer litigator friends who like anytime they go to the courthouse, they’re snapping that selfie or they’re walking out of there. [00:08:00] So there’s so many more opportunities to quote unquote be seen now than before.

Joseph Rosenfeld: Very true. I think that’s the thing about the digital age, and it’s a warning as much as it can be a joy. It’s also a warning. How are you showing up if there are all these other opportunities to put yourself out there, even in Some in some jurisdictions, court appearances are still also taking place on zooms, not everything is back to being in person.

So the context of how you show up and how often you may put yourself out there to promote what you’re doing, or to showcase your Not really as a promotional thing, but just to say, Hey, I’m doing this today and it feels really good to be out doing this, which I think is a slightly different context than something overtly self promotional.

How you put yourself out there for all those different experiences matters. And it matters more than ever. You think it’s ephemeral. Oh, if I [00:09:00] just put this little ha selfie moment on Instagram, for example, it will go away, but people have A way of remembering these images, there may be more indelible than they are throwaway.

It’s important to contemplate what kind of lasting impression an impression of the moment may give a person. So just to tell you one thing that I think is so important about this in my world, people are always talking about the first impression. What about the hundredth impression nowadays? The first impression is so far in the way back machine, but we’re able to make so many impressions today that we wouldn’t have made at any other time before more recent times.

So the hundredth impression, the 500th impression, the I’m not even exaggerating the 1000th impression matters. And perhaps More so than ever, the most recent impression matters [00:10:00] more than anything previous, 

Elizabeth Larrick: unless it’s something super sticky, right? And it could be something that you don’t want to be stuck in.

So what’s brain 

Joseph Rosenfeld: for sure, because something that happened a couple hundred impressions ago really left. Some indelible impression that is unshakable. And maybe it’s something that, uh, your good friends will razz you about, Oh my gosh, when you were showing up like this and your makeup ran or something like that, it just, you have to laugh about it.

But then you also want to be able to perhaps not have that happen because then that will be the only thing you’re known or remembered for instead of your. Great skills. Your heart, how hard you really work for people, what your work really means to you, what your clients really mean to you, what, just how far will you actually go for your clients.

Those are very deeply personal things and they should be reflected on the [00:11:00] outside of you. Not only those wackadooey, silly moments that people can’t let you live down. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Sure, sure. Tell me, you mentioned working with lawyers and have done that for a long time, being a lawyer, is there any something so special about us that you just like working with?

Joseph Rosenfeld: I think that the work that you do. is consequential and it’s personal. I also think for the litigators that I work with, there’s a little bit of a theatrical element to what it’s like to go to court and to think about how you want to show up to tell stories. I think every lawyer tells stories. I don’t mean fibs.

It’s real storytelling. Even if you’re a work a day lawyer working in an office at a law practice or in a corporate setting, [00:12:00] the stories that you have to tell to get buy in, the arc of the story has to do so much with the consequence of taking an action. Storytelling is very important. And how you show up to tell that story matters a lot.

It matters similarly to all the thought and preparation and research that goes into preparing for the actual story. For litigators, when you go to court and you have a story to tell, you have to tell it to the judge, you have to tell it to the jury, and Everyone in the courtroom is listening. Who’s the better storyteller?

The facts will play out. But if the facts can be malleable to some degree, and it’s about believability beyond a reasonable doubt, [00:13:00] who’s got the better story? Who’s the better relator? So, I love being able to do that kind of work with my clients. I find it joyful. And most people that I’ve worked with in the law find that storytelling and those theatrics is actually enjoyable for them too.

So I love being with people who find the joy in what they’re doing and also take it. Drop dead seriously, it’s consequential and I know that the work I do is consequential. So the energies really meet up nicely between the folks I work with and my own energy. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Absolutely true. And of course think trial lawyers sometimes take themselves too seriously, but it’s so true because most trial lawyers, litigators are very passionate about being in the courtroom and passionate about their clients.

And so. When you had that [00:14:00] video about matching right inside the outside and having that presentation come all together, I was like, Oh, that’s exactly what I think so many lawyers struggle with because there’s so much old advice out there about how we should be showing up in the courtroom. Very conservative where, if you will, and then the changes in the struggles that we have with, I will say just from my point of view, like it is sometimes a super struggle to go and be like, okay, I want to get a new suit or a new dress.

And I show up and it’s all these things that are quote unquote in style or fashionable. I can’t wear these things. Like, so tell me a little bit about as far as helping. Let’s take it like for sure, like the old advice, like what is some of the things that you hear? And I’ll share for me some of the old advice that I’m like, can we please get away from this old advice?

So what have you heard? Lawyers come to you and say, well, I have to do this. Just 

Joseph Rosenfeld: ladies always tell me lots of the same [00:15:00] things that gentlemen are somehow off the hook from, but here are some jewelry. Curls, quiet jewelry, when you move they can’t make noise, closed toed shoes, heels, specific types of hemlines, of which there are so many I won’t waste time even telling you.

Elizabeth Larrick: It baffles the mind. 

Joseph Rosenfeld: full body coverage. There are so many things, cosmetics, how heavy or how bare is a red lip salacious. These kinds of things really come up all the time and they still come up. And I have to welcome the questions because when people have to ask these questions, I know that people are definitely struggling with what is acceptable today.

Now, I should say for men, the question now comes in [00:16:00] around what about jewelry? Can a man wear an earring? Can a man wear two earrings? What about tattoos being visible? Do I have to wear a necktie? Can I have facial hair? It’s 2023. These types of questions still arise. And I think In large part, a lot of the answer has to do with the type of law you practice, the type of clients you have, the type of judge who hears your case, and what the judge’s values are, because it’s that person’s courtroom, if you will, and That creates a culture.

That culture may or may not have anything to do with your firm’s culture or your corporation’s culture, but you’re stepping into that environment and that is that culture. So there’s always research to be done. [00:17:00] I, as a non lawyer often find myself asking my lawyer clients, what kind of research have you done?

What do you know firsthand about that kind of culture? Do I need to go and do some research? And then I will do some stuff. It’s really interesting to try to figure those things out. You might consider, since we’re talking about a lot of storytelling, that’s the back story. Okay. And you need that, that’s the foundational basis for how to show up and do things right.

And then I think in terms of current mores and values and how people can show up. Everything to me is about in the end dressing appropriately and that casts a broader net than ever. Years ago, Mary Barra, who’s the CEO of General Motors, basically threw out an entire multi Page dress code [00:18:00] and said, the answer is dress appropriately, which then left every employee up to deciding what is that?

And then for employees and their managers to have to hash out what is appropriate dress and within different subcultures and we’ll stick to the law here, since that’s what we’re talking about. Different subcultures, even within law, have different kinds of acceptability levels, and so there are times when still more conservative dress is required.

I still think a tie is required for men in court. Basically anywhere. Why would it be wise to a shoe wearing a tie? Only to have a judge toss you out and say, this has continued. Go home and put a tie on, or go to the restroom and pull that tie out of your briefcase and put it on. To use a [00:19:00] pun, it’s not a good luck to have to stop a proceeding because someone isn’t retired correctly, and that’s just for the lawyers.

Of course. Then you have witnesses. Your clients, if they have to take the stand in the case of personal injury cases and things like that, or you may have for employment lawyers, there could be an employee that needs to take the stand. How do they need to show up? It’s all part of the story and how they can really represent themselves in a strong way that is good for the case and helps to really get their truth out.

So there’s so many. Rungs to this now, and I think when it comes to trends, Elizabeth, there isn’t necessarily one right answer. That’s probably the crux of the whole thing is that as I started off with the story of pearls, quiet jewelry, closed toed heels, these [00:20:00] things are like everyone is to do the same thing.

Um, everything is about complete conformity. There’s no room for anything personal about who you are as an individual, as a human, something that also differentiates you from any other lawyer within earshot of that courtroom, at least. I think that’s been what was wrong with all of those old rules. And by the way, there are still a lot of people in my field who think that those rules Rule.

And I think they suck because they don’t allow for a person to really stand in their power. Imagine feeling like this is my job. I am a litigator and I’m a rock star litigator and I have to dress this exact way that makes me conform to some old world standard of being and I actually feel held back [00:21:00] if you put clothes on and it starts to cost you things like your voice, your ability to move around and use your body and your body language to help communicate points.

That you feel absolutely sure of true to the letter of the law about passionate about and you feel like you have to hold back because you’re in some suit or dress that may as well have been a straight jacket. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, it’s a horrible feeling. Yeah. 

Joseph Rosenfeld: So that’s why I think it’s so important. important to put all these pieces together and then come up with a look that is a signature for you that allows you to really be exactly who you are supposed to be.

It should be emancipating and freeing and unleash your creativity. Inner beast of a lawyer, if you will, in the good way and really [00:22:00] represent your case and your client. 

Elizabeth Larrick: And I think those rules are helpful because when you’re coming out of law school, okay, those are the rules. And that makes it easy to think, oh, okay, then I know exactly what I’m going to get access to the variety of now at your fingertips, just going on Amazon.

There’s so many. Choices now that we have, it’s almost, it is overwhelming. And so going back to those rules is okay. Okay. This is comfortable. Okay. Um, I tried to step out, but no, I’m just going to go back to the rules. Cause that’s one of the things I think is always helpful when I walk into a store and I have an idea of this is what I like, and I’ll get someone to help me because one, I hope that they know like what’s in the store, otherwise I’ll be there way too long, but looking for something, but is that kind of, because there’s so many choices and it’s like.

There’s no way we would know all of that. Our job is to know what the law is and the case is. Am I hitting what you can help with or tell us about that? 

Joseph Rosenfeld: Yes. I [00:23:00] think what’s different about what I do versus what you can experience in a store is yes, people in stores know the merchandise and perhaps because they know the current merchandise, they know the trends.

And that’s part of it. helpful when you’re shopping, but what’s more helpful and what store associates don’t really take the time to do. And I just have to say, it’s what they’re not really paid to do. I used to be one, so I know, but I was a different kind of a person. That’s why I got into my business.

I’m in the business of really getting to know people. So that I can match with great precision what someone should wear. There’s a reason why I wore an olive jacket to sit. on Zoom with you. I knew that we were recording this for example, so this gives you a little background [00:24:00] context into why we would make decisions.

Now my eyes, which only you can see right now, and then whomever watches this when you put it up online, will also be able to see perhaps. My eyes are hazel and My eyeglasses and my jacket are an olive tone that play off my hazel eyes. People tell me that I have this incredible gift of being able to see into a person, that I can really take a good look at somebody and know them, that I’m very interested in studying them.

The color psychology behind hazel has a lot to do with healing, like sage. You burn sage when you are looking to heal a space, heal yourself, and there’s color psychology involved in everything. So I love to wear this kind of a color as a signature because It helps to [00:25:00] tell that story. Now, I told the quiet part out loud just now.

I want people to be able to see you and feel you really feel you and see you for exactly what you stand for. It’s like I’m making a value statement. Only now I cheated because I told you what it is. But if I didn’t say something, you would probably be able to absorb from looking at me and hearing me, how I’m using my body language, even my hands on a zoom, my vocal intonation, the way that I use words, the sound of my voice matches everything.

So I want to do that for. Anybody that I’m working with that’s super important, and it’s detailed and subtle and sometimes painstaking. For me, it comes more easily though because it’s my [00:26:00] gift, but try to explain this to anybody and they’ll be like, I’m just gonna go. Chop my closet or I’ll just go on Amazon and click on the first thing I find and buy it and be done with it or whatever.

I think that being able to put thought and intentionality into what you wear is transformative. And this is what I am really here to do with people. If you’re a lawyer and you’re listening to this, I think what’s important is how do you stand out and be the better lawyer, not only to be competitive.

With literally other lawyers that you practice with or are competing for the same clients or business with, how do you better yourself as a lawyer? If you could compete with yourself and be the better lawyer, and you have all the competence and all the skills and the degrees and the JD [00:27:00] stuff from all the right law schools and universities.

After you have all those things and you probably are on the bell curve with lots of people at your caliber being on the bell curve, by the way, is a, okay. That means you’re alive. You’re on that curve. It’s 

Elizabeth Larrick: wonderful. 

Joseph Rosenfeld: I just have to say, but then what happens, how do you actually differentiate yourself, even in some subtle way that allows people to see that your energy And the way you are as a human, which infuses the way you practice law, how does all of that come into play to make me want to come to you?

Why would I, as the client in need of a lawyer, come to you? What are you going to do for me and how are you going to do it for me that matters? And what’s amazing is that it’s not just the clothes. [00:28:00] I’m not bypassing the personal style and the appearance of things. It’s the entire self image, the self images, the parts of self from deep within that really make you who you are and who you want to become.

And then the clothing. Aspect and other parts of your outer image, like your nonverbal communication. In addition to your appearance, all those things come together to paint this very rich picture for everyone who needs to be in your presence. So when I’m thinking about. The apparel part of a person’s image.

I’m thinking about all the colors and the styles that are right for a person. How strong or how gentle does a person need to come across? How trustworthy and businesslike does someone need to be? How laid back does someone need to be? How poised [00:29:00] and perfectly positioned does someone need to be? Or how much of a Maverick or an avant garde personality needs to come through.

All of these play into different archetypes that I work with and people can be a blend of these different archetypes. No one is a monolith. We’re all multidimensional people. So by studying who a person is through their personality and understanding what colors best support that person, every lawyer that I work with ends up really having their own unique principles around their appearance and their style that is custom for that person.

So each lawyer really deserves to honor themselves. And in doing that, they can stand up in a better way to support their [00:30:00] clients and the cases they have and all the business matters that are before them. 

Elizabeth Larrick: And I think something that you hit on too, was lawyers, especially personal injury lawyers have a little bit of a tarnished reputation.

So credibility is really important for us. And I think, like you said, part of that blink reaction that people have sometimes is if things are. Cohesive, then you have a little more credibility, but if something is off or it’s just a little bit like in that blink reaction, people have a pause or they try to label you.

And like I said, sometimes our old school stuff comes where we just don’t know, or it’s like, Oh yeah, if I could have picked a different color instead of just wearing that same black suit or some, some variety of black would have been a little bit better. 

Joseph Rosenfeld: Right? Well, if you think about it. Black is a color that can create distance between you and the people who are looking at you.

It can [00:31:00] also be the color of someone who is in service, but that could be like the maitre d at a Michelin starred restaurant or a server, literally, or it could be a perfume spritzer in a department store, which you’re probably trying to avoid at all costs. So black has its place. Black can be very powerful, though, when you are practicing law and you have a point to make and you mean to be absolutely direct, the question then becomes, what do you augment that black suit or black dress with in order to communicate that you’re not just all that, that there’s more.

And so can I share a little story about that? 

Elizabeth Larrick: Oh yeah, sure. That’d be helpful. 

Joseph Rosenfeld: Okay. So I had a, this is a cool story. I had a client who [00:32:00] reached out to me one evening before going away on a, I remember this inside my head thinking this is a really funny story to recall because I was sitting in the hot tub at the time when she called it was in the evening and I knew to take the call.

So here we are. I’m in the hot tub on my cell phone and she’s in her closet saying I am taking a trip tomorrow to try to settle a case. What do I wear? And I asked her to tell me some information about the situation without giving away anything that I shouldn’t know, which I’m always careful about. And I have NDAs with lots of my clients anyway.

So sometimes they need to tell me more than perhaps I might like to know, but I have to or they think I should know. We all cover our tushes that way. So she told me That she knew that they could litigate this case [00:33:00] and win it, but she could also be a hero in that they could settle the case and it would save them a huge amount of time and money.

Yes, they would still have a payout, but it would come out better for them in the long run anyway. And then that would free up their resources to move on. Sometimes these decisions are very much about business. I’m sure I’m not telling you anything you don’t know, but for me as the non lawyer. This was important context for me.

There was even more to it than that. She also inherited this case from a predecessor. And when she learned about it, she felt badly about it. To be honest, she was honest with me to tell me. So I’m honest to share that. And I said, okay, I think I know exactly what you need to do. I asked her one question though.

Before giving her my advice, I said, is there anything that [00:34:00] you really want to tell this ex employee that you’re going to try to negotiate the settlement with? And she said, yeah, I want to say, okay, I’m sorry, like in a kind of a personal way. And I said, okay, here’s what you’re going to do. And I knew exactly everything she had in her closet.

So it sounds easy peasy because it was because I knew, and I had procured her wardrobe for her. So based on what I knew she had, I said, I want you to pull out this black suit pantsuit. It’s got peak lapels and underneath of it, I want you to pull out this. teal silk blouse and I want you to wear black heels and I want you to pull out the specific jewelry and I told her exactly what it was and she pulled it all together and she said, huh, that looks great.

Why did you tell me to [00:35:00] pull this out? Here’s the foil. This is the crux of the whole thing. The black suit in wool basically says, I’m here to do some business and I am serious and I’m not effing around, but underneath. So there was a sternness to the whole thing and the peak lapel as an expression is also important because it conveys authority and confidence.

Any garment with a lapel creates. A sense of authority, but a peak lapel in particular shows more boldness than a notch lapel like what I’m wearing right now. She had that. Then I told her about wearing this teal blouse. I said, this color plays off your eyes. He’s this ex employee is going to look at you saying something sincere [00:36:00] and he’s going to see sincerity.

The other thing is it’s a silk blouse. There’s a softness there. It’s closest to your skin, by the way. It tells an onlooker that you have a soft inside, even if your suit represents a hard shell exterior. You’re never going to tell this to somebody. But if you can show up looking that way, we are so conditioned in Western society to pick up on these cues, like it’s a language that we’re not fluent in, but somehow we understand contextually what’s going on.

And she said, I would never put it that way, but when you describe it that way, and I know that’s exactly how I’m going to wear it, that’s genius. And then of course she had the jewelry that also complimented her dark brown hair color and her eye color and it just put [00:37:00] a really good focal point on her.

Guys, if you’re doing the same kind of thing and you’re not really going to do a necklace and earrings like this, it’s all about what you do in your necktie. There’s so much symbolism that is the same. Whether it’s a solid tie, there are messages that come across in a solid tie. If you’re wearing a patterned tie, there are a bajillion messages that come across in patterns.

But if you’re wearing something that’s multi hued, Just like this jewelry is multi toned that I’m describing that she wore, it can be an ideal compliment to standing in your truth, standing in your power, standing in your sincerity, standing in your earnestness and standing in your, I am here to do business.

Take me seriously. This is serious. And the teal and the jewelry and everything [00:38:00] offset the black suit and the seriousness of the peak lapel, as I was describing, and it created this kind of push pull about these are my walls, but inside my walls is also another aspect of the real me. I’m not that difficult to deal with.

Let’s do it. And you know what? The whole thing flew and they settled. And after she called her husband to say, babe, I’m coming home and it was a good day. She called me to tell me what happened. And I was really flattered that she reached out to me to tell me what kind of success she had. The reason why the story I think is so powerful is yes, it was about what she wore and what that gave her, but it supported her [00:39:00] story.

It supported the messages that she wanted to deliver. And if she had to go to trial to do the same thing and not to settle this in an arbitration setting, we would have had similar conversations about exactly the very same thing, only it would have been a trial of maybe a few days. And we would have had more to strategize on over who are the witnesses, What’s the arc of the story when you’re not presenting your side and you have to sit back and listen for objections and things like that?

What do you wear when you’re going to behave like that? What do you wear for cross examining? There are so many things that I think about. We didn’t have to do that in this case because she arbitrated and it went exactly like clockwork the way she wanted. So that was a great, I loved that for her. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Well, and that, [00:40:00] I love the story.

Like that makes a lot of sense. Some people might say. Joseph, that’s a whole lot of thought into what I’m going to wear. I don’t have time to put all that thought into what I’m going to wear. Ever heard that holdout? 

Joseph Rosenfeld: Sometimes I do, but what’s interesting is when my clients are working with me, we make it a lot more simple.

So clients like this one new. She can pick up the phone and call me, and I’ll have an answer for her, because that’s just the way I work with people. Imagine, though, that she was leaving the next day, and she called me up that night, completely panicked. I don’t have the right thing to wear. And that then we have to go through what she does have and try to come up with something that she would have settled on.

[00:41:00] And, I feel like that notion of settling for something less than what it could have been is costly when the consequences of your presence in a setting is high. So in this case, she didn’t have to settle because she actually had the thing. Because when I build a wardrobe for my clients, I’m often thinking about, well, you’re going to need different things for different scenarios, different audiences, different purposes, and how can we be as fulsome, even if you’re a bit of a minimalist in how much of a wardrobe you might want to have.

I love the idea of. Own less, but better and do more with it. That’s my mantra. Secretly. I’m a maximalist. I’m a collector. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Pictures of your closet. 

Joseph Rosenfeld: I love the idea that for people who can’t have a big closet, like I have [00:42:00] that. And if you don’t want to spend your entire salary on clothing, which I don’t recommend anyway, How do you make more with fewer things?

I think in her case, she had all the right things. And when you make the right investment in that way, then it negates this pushback that you suggested that people could have. And yeah, people do have it. People do have it. But it dissipates once you realize the power that your wardrobe can give you. If you think about it, not as a lawyer and just as a lay person, you have a social gathering to go to, but you don’t have the right thing to wear.

It’s almost, Oh, that’s nice. I got invited to go to something, but I don’t have the right thing. The right thing or the lack of having the right thing is almost like someone [00:43:00] outside me gave me this invitation, which is a form of permission. I’m invited. I can cross the red velvet rope and get into this thing, but without the right thing that you don’t treat yourself to.

Or don’t invest in. Not everything is about treating in a luxury way. Some things you just really need without having the very things that you need. You deny yourself permission to gain entry. As a lawyer, you pass the bar, you have a case, you have right to be in that courtroom. Do you have a right to win?

If you got the right case, yes, but I think that how you show up enhances not only your right to be there, but your right and your ability to win. That’s what I firmly believe in. And so I’m trying to pass that message along to more folks because it doesn’t have to be as complex for you to do it. You don’t have to hire somebody to get help.

You [00:44:00] have to be mindful, at least, and if you could incorporate a touch more mindfulness, at least, than what you have gifted yourself with at any time in the past, you’ll set yourself on a better path for success through your wardrobe selections and how you show up to all your proceedings and client meetings.

You’ll do better. And if you want to do better than that, that’s where help is definitely. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yes. Well, and I think that we should be thoughtful about how we’re showing up because one of the things we always, I definitely tell folks who are going to go up on the stand is the moment you walk into that courtroom.

You are being watched and you’re being judged and they’re making decisions about you before you even get to open your mouth. And that’s everybody. And sometimes when I walk into a courtroom and I size up the other lawyer and I noticed things about what they’re wearing, I make immediate judgments that they’re not prepared.

They don’t know what this case is about. And I [00:45:00] know, you know, what I’ve done, but. I’ve definitely had that blink reaction and totally judged people. And I know that I’ve had judges look at me and make blink reactions about who I am and who I’m showing up to be. And of course it’s based on what I’m wearing, what I look like.

So tell us, okay. We’ve got folks listening here, mostly or personally trial lawyers and some employment lawyers as well. What are a couple of one or two tips or strategies that you would suggest to folks who are listening? 

Joseph Rosenfeld: When in doubt, take a look at your eye color. As I referenced earlier, it’s something so obvious, but people often ignore whatever your eye color is represents.

a deep inner knowing of the truth of who you are as a person. If you can repeat that color on your body in a way that provides a focal point back to your face, people will see your [00:46:00] earnestness. I think every lawyer has a baseline of being fairly earnest in their work. Sometimes though, it needs to show you aren’t ever going to Carry a picket sign into a courtroom with the letters on it that say, I am earnest.

They may think your name is earnest. I don’t know, but seriously, this is a very important thing because it’s the thing that you want people to know about you without you ever saying the, saying it out loud. Cause to say it out loud sounds. Ridiculous, except that you’re being earnest is far from being ridiculous.

And I think as you mentioned a little earlier, Elizabeth talking about in the case of personal injury attorneys, how Some have sullied the reputation of the whole and that may be true, but that does not have to be [00:47:00] true of you. And a lot of that comes through your earnestness, quite frankly. Eye color is really huge.

I also think that making sure You’re wearing garments that fit you well is very important and I have to say this in kind of the new post pandemic world. I don’t care if your weight went up down if you stayed the same. I’m a body positive person and I just have to say that because you don’t know me.

Find something that fits your body beautifully. It needs to flatter your body. It does not have to be skin tight, no matter what your size is. What you want is to make yourself look tall. If you could wear a monochromatic ensemble. whether it’s a suit or a dress that automatically makes you look more [00:48:00] monochromatic.

If you are very traditional in terms of your dress style and you’re female and or male, and you want to wear a skirt with a jacket, still going monochromatic is helpful. In that case, I think being able to stand tall, And powerful is important. And then to understand for yourself, okay, I got my strong and powerful part on how do I show my human side?

Because I’m not a monolith. I’m using first person here because I want you to be able to think about this for yourself. Like I am not a monolith. I’m not only about being strong and tough because what you want to be careful of. And I can say this without trying to insult anybody. I’ve worked with a lot of lawyers, right?

So you want to avoid the pretense of [00:49:00] arrogance. It’s important to try to find ways where there’s a win out of the situation. There’s any opportunity, even in the middle of a trial where it’s possible to still settle something. And you’re usually looking for some kind of good common ground. If you show like you’re, I’ll say this with air quotes, A good guy , um, meaning really just a good person, one of the good guys, if you will, a good person, judge, jury members, opposition counsel, even the people that you’re up against.

Oftentimes, people are willing to see the good in somebody if you’ll let it show. So always try to find a way to bring that good part of you in. And of course, being strong and powerful is also part of good, but that is that outer confidence piece. That’s what your suit is about or your dress is about. [00:50:00] As a funny thing that also I think is serious as well, this is for the ladies.

If you’re in a dress and it’s opaque and nobody can see anything that you’re wearing underneath, there is a time and a place when you may need to bring a little bit extra energy that no one is going to know that’s there, except for you. And I can’t tell you how many female lawyers I’ve worked with where giving them Lingerie that makes them feel absolutely powerful underneath helps them bring their power.

And I can’t say that any man has ever asked me to do underwear with them, but I will say that everybody has to wear something. And that, by the way, that’s extremely important. That’s a tip 

Elizabeth Larrick: right there. Always wear something, always 

Joseph Rosenfeld: wear underwear for sure. And I have to say, cause that’s come up. A time or two, believe it or not.

It’s also important to think [00:51:00] through what it is for you as a man. Those of you gentlemen who are listening in what as a man, you would wear that makes you feel powerful. As a whole person that you are still that soft. Where’s your core? What are your values? And just spend five minutes. You don’t need more than five minutes to really think about this.

You may even know it instantly. A favorite item that you have that might not be something that you’d wear to court, but might be something that could inspire what you could wear. That way, people also get to know a little bit more about the real you. Those are some of my favorite tips and often have to do with color because it’s what people who have the ability to see, which is still most people can see.

And they can infer a lot of [00:52:00] messaging directly from that because again, we are so deeply socialized into understanding what those messages are. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. And I think, you know, undergarments for ladies can be challenging. So for sure. And Just from personal experience. I don’t want to overshare here with somebody, but you can be, it can be all off and totally wrong and switching around those undergarments and getting things correct can really, truly being supported the correct way, but that way can really change how you’re.

Feeling and showing up and you don’t even know you’re doing it wrong. That’s sometimes what happens as well. 

Joseph Rosenfeld: It’s so true. When you finally get it right though, it’s, Whoa, it’s important to feel confident in your body. You can do so many exercises about confidence, about your voice and about your body language and about how you move.

There is something to be said about [00:53:00] being truly at one and at peace with your body for women. I always tell my clients every six months, it’s time to go get remeasured because your size will change. It just happens to, you know, Be that way. And if it doesn’t great, then you’re fine, but it doesn’t get you off the hook that you shouldn’t replace because the garments get used and which is important that you should use them.

They get used and then they are less effective. Let’s just say, and what you want is something that positions your body in just the right place. Place and where your garments fit beautifully and that when you see yourself, you can take pride in who you are and in how you’re showing up. And there is a kind of an inner self assurance that’s just for you.

That’s why I have to discern this. The inner self assurance [00:54:00] is just for you, and it can come through in outer confidence, which is from you, through you, that you want to project in a setting where you want everyone to know. You’re good. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. 

Joseph Rosenfeld: It’s not a start from within though. So I’m glad that I brought up the undergarment thing because it’s a thing and it’s a 

Elizabeth Larrick: total thing.

And you just, again, from personal experience. You just, you totally make an assumption and you just assume and you walk in there. And I just bless this salesperson who helped me because, and it’s just, it’s so easy to just again, go in there, get the same thing you always do. And it’s simple, it’s easy. You don’t have time, but it really does make a huge difference hands down.

And especially if you’re saying like, if you’re going to buy and invest in some clothing, It’s definitely worth like step one, get that [00:55:00] right. And then be able to have those things with you when you go to get the next wardrobe piece. I have one quick question and it’s like a burning question in my mind.

Pantyhose. 

Joseph Rosenfeld: Oh, 

Elizabeth Larrick: are we still doing this? Is this still a thing? Are you still doing a lot of your lady lawyers still wear pantyhose? 

Joseph Rosenfeld: Some. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Okay. Okay. 

Joseph Rosenfeld: Now I would say in fall, it becomes a little bit more acceptable in summer. Nobody really wants to do that. What sometimes what does happen though, in summer or hot months, I know you’re in Texas, it’s HOT.

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. 

Joseph Rosenfeld: It. I think what’s important is that perhaps. If a dress, if you want to wear a dress, maybe the hemline antithetically goes longer, but you’re in a lighter material, like a Jersey type of a material [00:56:00] because it helps make things more comfortable, but you’re a little bit more covered where you feel like, okay, my legs are not so bare and I don’t have to wear nylons and then that’s, and then that’s okay.

Then of course, sometimes people will ask me, I, I want to wear dresses. I, I would wear nylons, but it’s just so hot. I’m not going to do it, but what else can I do? And I have to probe a little bit more. And I find out sometimes what happens is sometimes women are very self conscious of their legs. Not even that it’s their shapeliness of their legs, if you will.

It has to do with the color of their legs. And so sometimes I will say, if you’re not putting yourself out there under the sun, which I’m not saying that you should do that, it’s cancer risk, obviously. What about wearing a safe. Bronzer and at least getting some color on your legs. Would that perhaps give you a little bit more [00:57:00] confidence to wear a dress where some of your leg will be visible.

I will make those kinds of recommendations to people because that matters. And that usually resolves. Most of the issue. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. And I think it’s just for us for a lot of times when I’m having this conversation with people, it’s where are you going? And for us it’s July and good luck. Cause it’s 109, no matter where you go and adding another layer just sounds like, Oh, but yeah, I’m always curious.

And yeah, of course. Depending on the weather, sometimes you just want to like, that’s an extra layer of warmth that makes it better for you. So 

Joseph Rosenfeld: correct. And then the fall and winter, not only are nylons okay, but then you have the chance to wear tights. You can wear something more opaque that can also be.

More shapely to the leg and I would use the word more containing in a way it’s if you could wear a leg or opaque tights, it’s very interesting what that can do, especially opaque tights, how that can really [00:58:00] give very, very definite shape and darkening to the legs can also make a person feel very powerful.

And sometimes that’s also what a woman would tend to wear with a boot. And not really just with a regular old heel at that point. And sometimes the feeling that you get when you’re wearing a boot versus a heel changes. It’s probably similar for the guys. If you’re wearing a loafer versus a lace up, it’s not that you can’t wear a loafer, but a lace up definitely looks a little bit more all about business.

So you can do both, but it also means that you’re. demeanor and disposition can change in the context of where you are wearing it and when you’re wearing it and who you’re wearing the stuff in front of. So being able to change things around is, it’s good to know that you have choices and then it’s about what choice are you making and why are you making it and when are you making it and for whom are you making it.

Elizabeth Larrick: Lots of things to think about, but I do [00:59:00] appreciate the fit is always so important, no matter what it is you wear or where you buy it from fit is always key. And then I love that eye color. That’s an easy thing to do. We can all look in the mirror and figure out, figure that out. So 

Joseph Rosenfeld: exactly. 

Elizabeth Larrick: Joseph, it has been a delight to have you.

I’ve learned so much about what I need to be thinking about when I get dressed. If folks want to get to know you more or connect with you, what’s the best way they can do that? 

Joseph Rosenfeld: I really enjoy making connections on LinkedIn because LinkedIn is where you can create community. And I have a nice little community of lawyers that I Chat with and create programming with for you on LinkedIn.

So that’s my favorite preferred place to meet up with me. 

Elizabeth Larrick: And I would highly recommend that. Like I said, that’s where we connected and I got to see some of your posts and some of your videos and really enjoyed just being thoughtful, being mindful and connecting those inner and outer parts to do a better job with who I am.

And then also, like you said, [01:00:00] I’m just just naturally going to reflect to the work that I do. Thank you so much again for joining us. And if you enjoyed the podcast, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast platform. Follow on any of those to get the downloads every Wednesday and until next time, thank you so much for joining us.

We will have all of Joseph’s contact information, including LinkedIn to be able to connect with him as soon as this podcast gets out. Thanks again.