Category: Podcast

In our last episode, we learned about Michelle Gessner’s recent trial in North Carolina, where she was forced to pivot from a regular audio/video presentation, using modern technology, to a courtroom with no microphones, no TVs, no projectors and a single power outlet (already claimed by the clerk and the court reporter!).

Click here to catch Episode 170 and hear the back story for today’s episode.

Michelle used AI to help adapt to this unexpected turn of events, asking it how to craft a visual presentation under these unique circumstances.

Today, we learn how it unfolded.

You could feel the courtroom change as the case progressed, and this was a quick trial: starting on a Monday, verdict by the end of day Tuesday. Literally two days.

In fact, there were some assets to the old-school, analogue approach: better eye contact with jurors, fewer distractions, and more movement.

Using what was learned from the focus groups before the trial, and the creative AI suggestions for presenting evidence, Michelle was able to correctly anticipate the jury’s emotional reactions as the witnesses unfolded.

With AI helping between trial days to make sure she’d met her burden of proof, Michelle then gave her closing argument with foam boards instead of any PowerPoint slides or technology.

And the result: she won.

If you want more trial prep strategies just like this, but in more depth and delivered straight to your inbox, grab my email newsletter that I send out each month:

https://www.larricklawfirm.com/newsletter

In this episode, we cover:

• How the visuals created with AI significantly engaged the jury.
• Focus groups provided valuable insights for trial strategy.
• How word choice is so important in your presentation.
• Closing arguments were enhanced by using visuals instead of technology.

Remember to check out Episodes 128 & 129, featuring Michelle Gessner and her $21 million dollar verdict against Wells Fargo:

• Part 1 [Ep 128]
• Part 2 [Ep 129]

You can also watch today’s episode on my YouTube Channel:AI During Trial: Jury & Verdict. Part Two with Michelle Gessner [Ep 171]

Learn more about my guest Michelle Gessner:

• https://www.mgessnerlaw.com/
• michelle@mgessnerlaw.com

Michelle Gessner is one of the few lawyers, if not the only lawyer, in North Carolina who has both Big Law and Big Company defense experience, as well as 10 years of employee-side employment litigation experience, which she has been nearly exclusively handling since 2015. 

Michelle possesses a deep understanding of the many challenges employees face dealing with wage theft and other illegal employment practices.

Prior to its formation, Michelle gained extensive experience in all legal issues facing the retail, restaurant, and hospitality industries by serving as the Chief Litigation and Employment Law Counsel for publicly traded companies such as Family Dollar Stores, Inc. (FDO), Darden Restaurants, Inc. (DRI), Big Lots Stores, Inc. (BIG) and TriNet (TNET). Michelle also served as the SVP, General Counsel, and Chief Administrative Officer for Ovation Brands, a privately held $1 billion restaurant company.

Follow and Review:

We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.

Have a trial or mediation coming up and want to test with a focus group? Book a free consultation call with Elizabeth to learn more:

• www.calendly.com/elizabethlarrick

Don’t miss out on the Trial Lawyer Prep Newsletter that is delivered right to your email with extra tips and ‘how to’ information. Join the newsletter here:

•  www.larricklawfirm.com/newsletter

My guest today,  Michelle Gessner, joined the podcast back in December of 2024, where we discussed her $21 million verdict against Wells Fargo.

Today she’s back with the story of a recent verdict success in North Carolina, which suddenly hit an unexpected twist.

The case was planned out to make use of high tech video equipment and software, as you would find in a standard, modern equipped court room.

But then, it was moved to courtroom that had no technology; in fact, only a single outlet with extension cords.

No microphones, no TVs, no projectors. Just old-school visual tools: easels, display boards, pen and notepads, and the projection of your own voice.

So how does one pivot, and still incorporate the planned visuals and presentation? AI to the rescue! What was already a useful tool was now needed to address the extra challenge of creating courtroom visuals in a no-technology courtroom.

Michelle and I explore how she started by using focus groups to find out weaknesses, then identified what needed to be visual, how to be visual under these unique circumstances, and ultimately AI’s creative suggestions. And the focus groups were the key, providing critical demonstratives to bring to life the evidence very early in the case.

If you want more trial prep strategies just like this, but in more depth and delivered straight to your inbox, grab my email newsletter that I send out each month:

https://www.larricklawfirm.com/newsletter

In this episode, we cover:

• How navigating a no-technology courtroom requires creative thinking.
• AI is a major asset in effective trial preparation, especially during sudden pivots.
• Using checklists can streamline witness examination.
• Objection-proof visuals are key to effective presentations.

Remember to check out Episodes 128 & 129, featuring Michelle Gessner and her $21 million dollar verdict against Wells Fargo:

• Part 1 [Ep 128]
• Part 2 [Ep 129]

You can also watch today’s episode on my YouTube Channel:AI for Winning Courtroom Visuals: Case Study with Michelle Gessner [Ep 170]

Learn more about my guest Michelle Gessner:

• https://www.mgessnerlaw.com/
• michelle@mgessnerlaw.com

Michelle Gessner is one of the few lawyers, if not the only lawyer, in North Carolina who has both Big Law and Big Company defense experience, as well as 10 years of employee-side employment litigation experience, which she has been nearly exclusively handling since 2015. 

Michelle possesses a deep understanding of the many challenges employees face dealing with wage theft and other illegal employment practices.

Prior to its formation, Michelle gained extensive experience in all legal issues facing the retail, restaurant, and hospitality industries by serving as the Chief Litigation and Employment Law Counsel for publicly traded companies such as Family Dollar Stores, Inc. (FDO), Darden Restaurants, Inc. (DRI), Big Lots Stores, Inc. (BIG) and TriNet (TNET). Michelle also served as the SVP, General Counsel, and Chief Administrative Officer for Ovation Brands, a privately held $1 billion restaurant company.

Episode Description

What if our assumptions about modern juror attention spans aren’t accurate?

We are all used to hearing that people have much, much shorter attention spans these days, thanks to social media, clickbait, algorithms, and a constant barrage of information.

While those things certainly represent a major shift in our day to day reality over the past 15+ years, that doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re paying less attention than we used to.

In fact, it’s more of a rewiring of our brains, thanks to technology, leading to a state of continuous partial attention.

Why is this important to trial law, case framing, focus groups and understanding juries? Because understanding how our brains have changed will then help you package and present your case in a more intentional, and effective way.

When I work with lawyers and focus groups, we work very hard on your presentations to make sure that they’re fitting our attention spans. To learn more about this process, book a free call with me here.

In this episode, we cover:

• How continuous partial attention means our focus is shallow, but long.
• How brains cannot multitask; they toggle between tasks.
• Why visual aids should amplify concepts, not repeat them.
• How jurors can easily get lost during long presentations.
• Re-entry points in presentations are crucial for audience understanding.

Remember to check out Episode 144 of Trial Lawyer Prep, The 8 Second Rule That’s Costing You Verdicts, to learn more about the brain science behind attention spans:

The 8 Second Rule That’s Costing You Verdicts [Ep 144]

You can also watch today’s episode on my YouTube Channel:

Juror Attention Spans: The Science Every Trial Lawyer Needs to Know [Ep 169]

Resources

Don’t miss out on the Trial Lawyer Prep Newsletter that is delivered right to your email with extra tips and ‘how to’ information. Join the newsletter here:

• www.larricklawfirm.com/connect

For an effective discovery, case framing should start as early as possible. But be ready to pivot!

Don’t let the other side get the jump on you in framing a case, and put you in catch-up mode from the start. You need to start framing a case at intake, especially for higher-value cases.

But, as our guest points out today, you also need to be ready and willing to pivot, should new facts arise, or if a new framing will in fact strengthen your case.

Tony Edwards is a personal injury lawyer in Oklahoma, and shares stories and wisdom from his decades of experience. We talk about a trucking case where digging into personnel records uncovered that the driver had previously been fired for on-the-job drug use, convincing Tony and his team to pivot to a stronger employer-focused theory, and a settlement at trial for the prior demand.

Focus groups are a great help for this kind of shift, since you’ll instantly receive feedback on what works and what doesn’t, and particularly what may go against your own assumptions and expectations. You then just need to be willing to adjust!

Early focus groups change how you build a case, and build a case frame. Book a free call with me and learn more about my online focus groups for plaintiff personal injury lawyers.

In this episode, we cover:

• How discovery can significantly change the framing of a case.
• That strategic questioning in discovery is key to uncovering information.
• Pulling from real-world examples to illustrate the impact of effective case framing.
• How focus groups can reveal unexpected insights about case issues.
• That AI can assist but should not replace human review.
• Why attorneys should not hesitate to seek help from peers.

Learn more about my guest Tony Edwards:

• www.edwardspattersonlaw.com
• tony@epinjurylaw.com

Tony Edwards was born and raised in McAlester, Oklahoma and has devoted himself to serving the legal needs of the people in his home area. He received his undergraduate degree in sociology and psychology from East Central University in Ada and then went to Oklahoma University College of Law, receiving his J.D. in 1982.

In 2006, Tony decided to that he wanted to create a smaller firm that would give him an opportunity to provide more personal service. The Edwards firm was born that year, and he has continued to concentrate on plaintiff’s civil litigation. His practice today encompasses cases involving motor vehicles, nursing homes, defective products, and oil-field injuries. He has been involved in numerous mass-tort cases involving defective products.

Edwards and Patterson began in 2015 when he became partners with Matt Patterson. His efforts have resulted in numerous significant verdicts and settlements for his clients.

Don’t miss out on the Trial Lawyer Prep Newsletter that is delivered right to your email with extra tips and ‘how to’ information. Join the newsletter here:

• www.larricklawfirm.com/connect

There is a crucial difference between timelines and sequences, and if you want jurors to see your case as plainly as you see it, you need to pay close attention.

Today we explore not just how timelines help jurors understand the case quickly, but why that is: the psychology and brain science behind retaining information. Timelines are a curated visual picture of the case, sequencing is about the order of presenting evidence.

Similar, yet each with their own distinct psychologies.

I know, not all lawyers use timelines, but they can be very effective, and focus groups help you recognize and fine tune what is most likely to register with juries. We want to make things as clear as possible for the jury, so don’t lose your jury because you’re jumping around the timeline. Logic, clarity and chronology that are structured and presented well can make all the difference.

If you want to test your timeline and sequencing presentation on a focus group, book a free call with me.

In this episode, we cover:

• How cognitive science shows that the first information is often assumed to be the first event.
• Why sequencing is essential for guiding jurors to a conclusion.
• How focus groups can help identify key events for timelines.
• Why overloading jurors with information can lead to confusion and undermine your case.
• Both timelines and sequencing are necessary for effective persuasion.

Further links and references from this episode:

Episode 158: Trial Strategy v. Trial Tactics

New Blog post: Which Virtual Focus Group does Your Case Need?

You can also watch today’s episode on my YouTube Channel:
Trial Strategy in Action: Timelines, Sequencing, and What Wins [Ep 167]

Don’t miss out on the Trial Lawyer Prep Newsletter that is delivered right to your email with extra tips and ‘how to’ information. Join the newsletter here:

• www.larricklawfirm.com/connect

Five days before trial, a team chose to play defense witness deposition clips, instead of calling the witnesses live.

Instinct tells us, training tells us: do it live. Live is better. Live is more persuasive. Live is much more catchy for cross exam. Video puts people to sleep.

However, what I walk you through today really boils this down to a primacy question, or in other words, first impressions. In the case above, focus group data showed that clips were having far more impact in setting the stage, and locking in that first impression. So the team pivoted, and the trial took on an entirely new phase.

Playing short clips produced visible juror annoyance, and later live testimony only confirmed the negative impression, contributing to a verdict of over $7 million.

The choice between clips and live testimony should be data-driven. It could mean using either clips or live witnesses, but the principle is this: don’t just assume that live is better.

If you’ve got a trial coming up and a decision you’re wrestling with, and you want to test it out to find the first impression, book a free call with me:

https://www.calendly.com/elizabethlarrick

In this episode, we cover:

• How primacy affects jurors’ first impressions significantly.
• Why live witnesses are traditionally seen as more persuasive.
• Understanding juror perception is key to trial success, and focus groups help guide that understanding.
• Testing witness credibility through focus groups is essential.
• Why the first impression of a witness is hard to change once set.

Don’t miss out on the Trial Lawyer Prep Newsletter that is delivered right to your email with extra tips and ‘how to’ information. Join the newsletter here:

• www.larricklawfirm.com/connect

AI has hit the mainstream, and not just in everyday life, but in trial law and legal prep.

The days of startups and experimental software have quickly evolved to comprehensive, through and reliable AI-based programs, used by countless law firms and lawyers every day.

As a result, it feels like we are racing to keep up. To jump on the bandwagon before it’s too late, yet making sure you’re using AI in accurate, and ethical, ways.

Matthew Fornaro is a South Florida business litigator, with over 20 years of courtroom experience and a long track record of representing small businesses, entrepreneurs and startups in commercial litigation, contract disputes and arbitration. But what brings him to Trial Lawyer Prep today is his insight on using AI in trial prep and the courtroom.

Matthew has dedicated his time to learning different AI programs, applying them to different types of cases, and analysing the results. He is thus well-placed to detail with us specific platforms and strategies for using AI, that enhance trial outcomes.

AI serves as a collaborative tool, not a replacement for human judgment. But knowing how to integrate it into your practice can pay huge dividends in time, accuracy, the effectiveness of response and rebuttal, and ultimately: better results for you and your clients.

In this episode, we cover:

• The various aspects of AI application, including document review, jury instructions, and cross-examination
• AI helps lawyers distil complex cases into understandable narratives
• Using AI responsibly requires fact-checking and ethical considerations
• How to make sure you are choosing software that is conceptually proven, not just theoretical (looks good on paper)
• How AI can democratize access to legal resources for smaller firms.

Learn more about my guest Matthew Fornaro:

• https://fornarolegal.com/
• mfornaro@fornarolegal.com

Have a trial or mediation coming up and want to test with a focus group? Book a free consultation call with Elizabeth to learn more:

• www.calendly.com/elizabethlarrick

Don’t miss out on the Trial Lawyer Prep Newsletter that is delivered right to your email with extra tips and ‘how to’ information. Join the newsletter here:

• www.larricklawfirm.com/connect

Running a good focus group is really a lot like conducting a good trial: Fundamentally, it’s about understanding people.

And you don’t need a psychology degree to do so. If you have an innate understanding for human behavior, relationships, biases and different means of communication, then you already have the instinct to make the most of your focus groups.

Today’s episode breaks down three key steps to be organized and prepared for your next group. Armed with these tools, you can then hit the ground running and really connect with juries and clients.

We cover:

• Setting clear goals for focus group sessions
• Developing a structured plan to ensure effective listening
• Overcoming personal biases in focus group settings
• Avoiding common pitfalls like overloading information and lack of organization
• Conducting test runs to improve the quality of focus group feedback
• Don’t assume that you’re a natural presenter; preparation is key
• Make sure you’re listening more than speaking
• Seeking help if you’re too biased to run a focus group

Set up a free consultation today: https://www.calendly.com/elizabethlarrick

You can also watch today’s episode on my YouTube Channel:

3 Steps to Get Reliable Juror Feedback [Ep 164]

Additional resources:

How to Do Your Own Virtual Focus Groups Part 2: Planning and Moderating

Don’t miss out on the Trial Lawyer Prep Newsletter that is delivered right to your email with extra tips and ‘how to’ information. Join the newsletter here:

• www.larricklawfirm.com/connect

Heading into deposition prep, your clients are typically nervous, anxious, overwhelmed and lacking confidence.

They are most likely in a situation they have never found themselves in before, and undoubtedly the stakes feel very high.

But we need to get them to focus, to remember, to think and answer clearly, and to let go of their fear and uncertainty.

This episodes focuses on three clear, distinct strategies that also help you remember how to get the most out of your clients at this crucial juncture. Clients will feed off of not just your confidence, but your calm demeanor and encouragement.

Elevate your practice with these insights for building a strong foundation in witness preparation. We tap into some fascinating brain science to help us all understand not just what to do, but why our brains, and therefore our emotions, function the way they do.

In this episode, learn how:

• Your working memory holds only three to five things at a time.
• Fear can block rational thought and memory retention.
• Using clear language and expectations supports and empowers clients.
• Roadmaps help clients understand their roles in depositions.
• Repetition is key to overcoming the forgetting curve.
• Role-playing scenarios help your client feel comfortable and confident during deposition.

Links from this episode:

• Learn more about Hermann Ebbinghaus’ Forgetting Curve (via growthengineering.co.uk)

You can also watch today’s episode on my YouTube Channel:

Improve Your Clients’ Memory and Confidence With These 3 Techniques [Ep 163]

Have a trial or mediation coming up and want to test with a focus group? Book a free consultation call with Elizabeth to learn more:

• www.calendly.com/elizabethlarrick

Don’t miss out on the Trial Lawyer Prep Newsletter that is delivered right to your email with extra tips and ‘how to’ information. Join the newsletter here:

• www.larricklawfirm.com/connect

We’re all busy trial lawyers and specialists, typically juggling multiple cases at once. 

Time management and organization is crucial, and we can’t allow ourselves to get overwhelmed, to risk impacting not just the case but our own health and well-being.

It’s worth taking the time to make sure your tasks and workflow are efficient, your calendar flows logically, and your habits are positive and healthy. Even just a few minutes’ pause for retrospection and meditation can make a huge difference.

And I’ve been right in the thick of it lately myself! As a trial consultant, I was getting two separate trials off the ground here recently, and so was devoting a lot of time to helping those trials get their opening statements, hit lists, and order of proof ready.

This week’s episode was one of the most popular of 2025, and features lawyer coach Dina Cataldo. Dina talks to us about the unique challenges lawyers face in managing their time effectively, the importance of mindset in overcoming overwhelm, and practical strategies for creating healthy routines. 

Dina reveals methods like “Sunday planning,” and setting time limits for tasks, to streamline workflow and improve efficiency. 

And we talk about the unique challenges female attorneys face, balancing demanding careers with personal responsibilities, and provide strategies to enhance daily productivity and instill confidence.

In this episode, learn how:

• Lawyers need to treat themselves as humans, not robots. Implementing time management is key for anyone in the legal field.
• Self-awareness is at the core of managing time and reducing stress.
• Healthy habits, including nutrition, impact overall performance and help you get better results.
• Creating a structured plan can alleviate trial-related stress.
• You can avoid getting caught underestimating the time needed for tasks. Address internal resistance and developing a healthy relationship with time.

Links from this episode:

• Learn more about Dina Cataldo: https://www.dinacataldo.com
• Get Dina’s Free Workbook: 3 Sneaky Problems Stealing Your Time and Productivity (and How to Fix Them Now!) https://dinacataldo.lpages.co/3-sneaky-problems/

You can also watch today’s episode on my YouTube Channel:
Trial Lawyers and Time Management: Wisdom from Dina Cataldo [Ep 162]

Follow and Review:

We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.

Have a trial or mediation coming up and want to test with a focus group? Book a free consultation call with Elizabeth to learn more:

• www.calendly.com/elizabethlarrick

Don’t miss out on the Trial Lawyer Prep Newsletter that is delivered right to your email with extra tips and ‘how to’ information. Join the newsletter here:

• www.larricklawfirm.com/connect