On this episode of Trial Lawyer Prep, Elizabeth Larrick shares strategies for trial lawyers to develop a winning legal approach from the start of litigation. Drawing from her experience with renowned trial lawyer Don Keenan, Elizabeth explains the dangers of last-minute strategy planning and the confusion that can arise from disorganized opening statements. She emphasizes the need for a clear and cohesive presentation to effectively communicate with juries.
Elizabeth shares practical methods to kickstart your trial preparation, including the use of jury research and focus groups, and highlights the benefits of committing to a single persuasive strategy. Discover actionable steps such as writing down ideas, dedicating focused time for evaluation, and seeking inspiration from trial strategy literature or podcasts.
In this episode, you will hear:
Importance of early trial strategy development to avoid procrastination pitfalls.
Risks of a disorganized “Frankenstein” approach and cramming strategies into opening statements.
Value of committing to a single, coherent persuasion method for trial success.
Utilization of jury research and focus groups to test and refine trial strategies.
Actionable steps for trial preparation: writing ideas down, setting time blocks, and seeking inspiration.
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Supporting Resources:
Jump to Episode 131 to get an overview of trial strategy.
[00:00:00] Welcome to Trial Lawyer Prep. What if you could hang out with trial lawyers and jury consultants? Ask them about connecting with clients and juries more effectively. Then take strategies, tactics, and insights to increase your success. Each week, Elizabeth Larrick takes an in depth look at how to regain touch with the everyday world.
Understand the emotional burden of your clients and juries and use focus groups in this process. Elizabeth is an experienced trial lawyer, consultant, and founder of Larrick Law Firm in Austin, Texas. Her goal is to help you connect with juries and clients in order to improve your abilities in the courtroom.
Now, here’s Elizabeth. Hello, and welcome to the podcast trial lawyer prep, or welcome back if you’re a continued listener and thanks for doing that. I’m your host, Elizabeth Larrick, and today we are going to dive into trial strategy and how to [00:01:00] not procrastinate, why your trial strategy should not be an afterthought.
And we have talked a little bit about trial strategy this year already. If you missed that episode, it’s 1 31. What is trial strategy? What it is not. It’s great conversation, quickly overview about what trial strategy is. And if you missed last episode, please scroll back and listen to that one. We had a wonderful guest, Dina Cataldo, talking about time management and mindset for trial lawyers.
Very helpful, easy, small things we can do to help manage our time a little better, which actually fits pretty well with what we are doing here today because lawyers. You all are just really busy folks. We have lots of files in our offices. We have many things that are going to trial or preparing for those mediations.
And so when that happens, we can let that strategy piece kind of slide down [00:02:00] the priority list and it’s easy to do. And I don’t think that we are lazy people at all. I just think that sometimes these larger pieces of a trial, the strategy Thinking through some of the bigger pieces of persuasion can go by the wayside because we get inundated with what I call busy work.
We have that list of designations we need to do in trade and think about the witnesses and making sure the schedule works and then also finishing up those motions in limine, maybe even getting ready for those last minute hearings on motions for summary judgments or excluding experts. So there’s a lot of busy work that can really lead up to that trial date, including the ever looming settlement talks.
So it’s very easy for this trial strategy piece to kind of slide down that priority list. And I really want to just talk about. When we can start doing this and ways to make it [00:03:00] easier, but before we get there, we have to kind of talk about what actually happens sometimes when we do let it slide down that priority list and little procrastination may creep in.
Hey, it’s okay. I totally understand. I was there. I helped people who were there. That’s why we have our trial strategy call is to help people who may be in that place. What ends up happening? What I see when we do kind of our focus groups and getting people ready is a big pile of any kind of strategy is kind of crammed into that opening statement and into those jury selection questions without a lot of order.
And so it really becomes very confusing. So you may have somebody who is writing an opening statement and they’re using rules of the road and they’re trying to retrofit in some of the reptile stuff. And then they’re trying to fit in some sorry to Lamont and some trial by human. And when you just put it all in there, it becomes such a confusing mess [00:04:00] for the jury to try to untangle.
And confusion is our enemy 100%. You know, we get to go first as plaintiffs. We really have to be very clear about our organization and how we’re going to present things to the jury. Because if we don’t. The jury then has to use their own organization, and you won’t know what that is until the end of trial, because they’re trying to carry all this information, and without having a prioritization, what is most important, what is not, without having a clear framework from you as the leader, right, as the teacher in the courtroom, it can, things can get lost and completely forgotten, even though they may be the most important thing in your case.
So that really kind of becomes, you know, a machination of just piecing it together, what works, what doesn’t, you know, hey, maybe this will, we’ll try this here, we’ll try this there, uh, really kind of creating a Frankenstein, if you will, of [00:05:00] trial strategy. And that’s really what you want to avoid 100 percent is it just allows too many places where there may be holes.
Right. Jury is going to fill in what they think versus what may be the actual truth. And it really becomes difficult for you to then follow through with what organization you may have put out there. And what ends up, I do see happening is people basically. Different cross exam styles for different witnesses.
And so again, that still creates a confusing message for the jury. They’re trying to put it all together. You know, they’re trying to see the whole thing and you’d want to create, again, a clear picture for them to follow and understand. And that is why when we wait to make an afterthought and we try to throw, you know, everything in the kitchen sink at it, it really becomes harder for you as the communicator as well.
You want to do an amazing presentation, be a clear communicator, you know, be very passionate about what you’re saying, but if you’re [00:06:00] trying to cram so much stuff into like a small space of an opening statement, it’s really difficult for you to even remotely try to memorize even the organization of that.
So let’s make it easier on you as well. Okay, I want it to be easy for the jury and I want it to be easy for you as well. And so we know the trouble of waiting, right? It causes lots of problems and disorganization and unclear communication, uh, piecemeal, putting things together. So let’s talk about really then, when do you start looking at trial strategy?
And one of the things that I learned when I was doing trials, uh, with Mr. Keenan, Don Keenan, was learning just a very loose framework of starting at the beginning of litigation and knowing that you have the facts, you don’t necessarily have how depo testimony is going to go. But you begin to look and at least ask questions from the beginning of, Ooh, what are the strong points here?
And then [00:07:00] making kind of a plan even just to follow it through even a little in deposition to figure out You know, what maybe are the rules or the safety rules, if you’re going to use rules of the road, what are some polarization points or what are some strong principles in your case? But just looking at it from the very beginning and making a few notes right when you are starting litigation, right when you’re filing it, you’re getting that discovery ready to just really see where.
The strategy may be, where’s that overall organizational plan for laying this out, if you had to with a jury. That doesn’t have to be the whole thing, but I think when you have a, even just a rough idea early on, and then when you pick that file up again. And you see those notes and you say, Oh, okay, great.
Well, I’m getting ready for depo prep. Let me just put in a couple questions here and there to see if this is going to hit, right? If this is going to be something that actually works well based on what the testimony ends up being. And [00:08:00] then you’re just doing a little bite at the apple each way. And I also love hearing about folks, my good friend, Courtney, who likes to basically kind of pick a file in her.
Caseload and say, okay, this one, I am going to 100% try this particular strategy. I know that we have this piece of evidence in the case, and so I’m gonna pick this strategy and I’m gonna just go with it. I’m gonna go all in. I’m not gonna try and confuse it and just to try it out as well. You know, we have so many different available thoughts and strategies.
And as we are, we try to again, machinate kind of make her a little Frankenstein and like that doesn’t really always work. So I loved her idea. She talked to me about that here recently, and they basically took a case and put it 100 percent through a particular strategy, if you will, or way of persuasion organization is probably the better word to use.
And it really helped her work [00:09:00] through from start to beginning, not waiting until she’s sitting at trial or not waiting 30 days out. Okay, here’s this case. How do I retrofit it into this? I’m really taking on one particular road map or. You know, rules the road, like I said, and going through the whole way.
And the other thing, of course, is to test it out in jury research, right? Do those focus groups to see if, hey, does this ring for them? Does this make it clear for them? Does this communicate the way that I want? Is it persuasive, right? So, and again, if you have the ability to start early, Knowing, hey, this is going to be one that’s probably likely to be teed up for trial.
Not every case I understand is going to be 100 percent guaranteed trial. We all know that, but I think having a little bit of 30 minutes, 15 minutes, hey, you know what, this looks like it might line up really well with, you know, rules of the road or with doing a road map. And so how can I kind of start to [00:10:00] test that out in my depositions, and then of course use it and take it over to the focus group to see if that actually rang true for them.
And, you know, getting started early always makes things a little bit easier, doing it a little bit along the way, and having that written down also significantly just reminds you, right, when you pick that file back up. So I know it can be hard to kickstart to get us. away from procrastinating and make time to do this trial strategy, this organization.
And so I have three ways that I like to do it. They’re all a little different depending on what’s happening or what kind of file it is. And so number one, I think is to really sit down and write it out. type it out. That really helps me commit to what’s in my mind and getting it out on paper or getting it out, typing it out as well.
And I even take that next step of printing it out and going back over it at another time. So I always like to start out early enough where there can be times where I’m thinking through [00:11:00] it or printing it and coming back to it the next week, whether I’m getting ready to do a CLEs. Speaking spot, whether I’m getting ready to do a focus group presentation or helping somebody with their opening statement, I think having it written down, having it typed out is much, much better than just like free flowing thought in your head.
The second thing I would advise is just do a time block, you know, have at least one hour that you set aside, nothing else you’re going to do and just think about the evidence Think about trial and, you know, really if you want to write it down at that point, you can, but I, I always found that it was unusual at the time, but now I understood more as we did.
Again, when I worked with Mr. Keenan, he would actually spend a lot of time just visualizing the trial, thinking through the evidence that was available, even just looking through Transcripts of the focus group or was significant and just getting the ball rolling like [00:12:00] kickstarting. Like, oh, yeah, someone said that.
Oh, yeah, that’s a great spot. So I always enjoy just it’s almost like research, just getting back into the file for an hour, looking at stuff, thinking through it and then, of course, you know, making a note of it so that we don’t forget it for when we pick it back up again. Last thing that I would advise to kind of kickstart your trial strategy ideas and organization for a case is just to pick up a book, right?
Pick up Damages 3. Pick up Trial by Human. Go back to Rules of the Road. Pick up Sorry, De La Motte. Like, there are so many amazing books that are out there that just get your mind started thinking about it. And that’s really sometimes the best place for me is when I am reading a book in the morning. It may not be related at all to trial strategy, but.
It may be spark an idea and then I have to immediately write it down otherwise it’s lost. So again, three ways to kind of kickstart your trial strategy. One, sit down and just start writing it out. Super helpful. I know people always say, well, I don’t have time to [00:13:00] write it. Type it out. That’s fine too.
Print it out. Have something that you can put in your hands and go over later. Number two is just use that time block schedule. Block yourself an hour. Make sure you’re going through things and thinking about and visualizing, but blocking that time, devoted time to do nothing but think about that case is significantly helpful.
And number three, pick up a book, right? Or even listen to a podcast. There are so many great podcasts out there where people are either talking about their trial that they just recently won or Talking about picking a jury or, you know, strategies for figuring out principles, lots of great lawyer podcasts that can kind of get you kickstarted, get that creativity going as best as possible.
So in just a quick recap, all right, so number one, please don’t wait. Don’t make trial strategy and afterthought because if not, you’re going to be just picking up the puzzle pieces to see where they fit and hoping that it comes together instead of just knowing that it [00:14:00] will. And of course, knowing when to start, which is as early as you can, think about when you’re filing that litigation, making some notes.
So when you pick the file back up, you can say, how can I thread in some questions and deposition to see if this strategy is going to line up? Or if it’s not, of course, also working in some jury research to help know that you’re hitting the right button. And then of course, our last one, which was three ways to kickstart our ideas for our trial strategy and get you excited.
Okay. Well, I hope that this podcast episode was helpful to you. If you enjoyed it, please like review. We haven’t had a review in a while, so please follow the podcasts and just give us a good review out there. And of course, if you have any questions, any concerns, or want to learn more, just check in those show notes for the website and the email.
All right. Thanks so [00:15:00] much.
Episode Credits
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Explore practical time management and mindset strategies tailored for trial lawyers with expert insights from lawyer coach Dina Cataldo. In this episode, Dina shares her journey from criminal prosecutor to coach, offering actionable advice to manage stress, prioritize tasks, and overcome negative thoughts. Discover how small habit changes can lead to significant improvements in your legal practice and personal life.
Elizabeth and Dina address the unique challenges female attorneys face, balancing demanding careers with personal responsibilities, and provide strategies to enhance daily productivity and instill confidence. Learn how structured planning and healthy routines can conserve energy and reduce stress, essential skills for the fast-paced world of trial law.
Dina reveals methods like “Sunday planning” and setting time limits for tasks to streamline workflow and improve efficiency. Understand the importance of addressing internal resistance and fostering a healthy relationship with time for professional growth.
In this episode, you will hear:
Time management strategies tailored for trial lawyers.
Importance of mindset in enhancing courtroom performance and managing stress.
Techniques for optimizing energy levels and reducing daily frustrations.
Structured planning methods, including “Sunday planning” and setting time limits for tasks.
Addressing internal resistance and developing a healthy relationship with time.
Emphasis on self-care and prioritizing personal goals alongside professional duties.
Follow and Review:
We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.
Elizabeth: Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. I’m your host, Elizabeth Larrick, and we have a treat today. We have a wonderful lawyer coach who’s going to talk us about time management. So Dina Cataldo,
Dina: thank you so much for joining. Thanks so much for having me on your [00:01:00] podcast, Elizabeth. I’m really excited for our conversation.
Elizabeth: I am too, because I know that I am going to learn some things about managing my time that I did not know, but you know, I. Here’s the thing, and I know that folks who are listening, our trial lawyers in the audience, like, we all want to be more productive with our time, and we all struggle with having too many things to do with our time.
Elizabeth: So I thought you would be an excellent person to come tell us about how we can be better. And, you know, just help us maybe solve some even small things that can make a big impact.
Dina: Oh my gosh, of course, and it’s my pleasure to do it. This is what I do all day, every day with lawyers. So I love talking about this topic.
Elizabeth: Awesome. Well, and let’s talk, I would love for folks to know just a little bit more about like, what does it mean to be a lawyer coach? Because I obviously totally love having an outside perspective. That’s one thing I love to do for my lawyers when I work with them with focus groups. But tell us a little bit about what does that really mean to be a lawyer
Dina: coach?
Dina: Well, I was a criminal [00:02:00] prosecutor for about 16 years. And what I discovered was that coaching was something that could change my entire outlook. It changed my entire experience of the work that I did. And for me, coaching is really understanding my mind at the highest level, at being able to self manage, at being able to self regulate so that I can not procrastinate on all of the things that my brain tells me I should be procrastinating on.
Dina: Or if I am doing things that aren’t serving me, that I recognize it and I change gears and I do something differently. And what I know as Myself, like I call myself a lawyer coach because I’m a lawyer and by trade, right, by training, and I only coach lawyers. Like I specifically just coach lawyers because I think that there’s a very specific type of person who enters the legal profession.
Dina: And [00:03:00] I can relate to that person because I am that person. And so, you know, the things that I have learned the hard way and the things that I teach my clients the easier way. Are things that I think that every single lawyer needs to know to really function at their highest level in the legal industry.
Dina: And I know that the people listening are high achievers. They would not be in trial practice unless they wanted to be amazing at the work that they did. And there’s no way for us to really be at our best unless we are managing ourselves, managing our time effectively.
Elizabeth: Absolutely. And there is an endless list.
Elizabeth: It never ends with the things that we have to take care of and the files that we have. But, you know, we always, it’s, you nailed it, like, especially, you know, personal injury lawyers, like, we have to keep that wheel going. And sometimes it’s just like, oh, wow. Things just fall through the cracks or by the [00:04:00] wayside.
Elizabeth: And so I’m really interested to hear, you know, a little bit more, but I’m curious before we go a little further, because there are some people who have coaches that it’s like a done for you. If you know what I mean? Like I’m going to do this for you. And some people are like consulting. Well, yeah, I mean, I think the line can get a little blurred where sometimes it is consulting.
Elizabeth: Sometimes it’s coaching. So some people, it’s like a done with you, somebody has it done for you. So tell us a little about like how you like to work with lawyers. Well, I don’t do the planning for them, right?
Dina: I mean, we’re really working at. I mean, let’s take it even a step back. Like, let’s really talk about what mindset is because we have about 60, 000 thoughts a day, and most of them are on repeat. And most of those thoughts are really crappy. There are thoughts like, I have so much to do. This is so hard. I don’t know where to start.
Dina: This is just the worst. And when we’re [00:05:00] thinking in that kind of a mindset, even if it’s unconscious, Especially if it’s unconscious, it is going to have a negative impact on our practice. We’re going to feel lots of overwhelm. We’re going to feel a lot of pressure and anxiety. And what ends up happening is we start to act at the effect of the world around us.
Dina: So we think the reason that we feel bad is because there’s a dozen cases in our inbox. We think the reason that we feel bad is because there’s a million emails in the inbox. We think the reason that we feel bad is because our assistant isn’t doing what we told them to do for a millionth time, right?
Dina: Yeah, but what’s really happening is that we’re not managing ourselves to see how we’re impacting what’s going on, whether it is the negative performance of an employee, which may surprise people listening that if you’re not training your assistant and telling them exactly what you want and having it in writing and giving them something like an S.
Dina: O. P. In order to follow it, probably not going to do it the way you want them to. Right. And that’s something that, you know, [00:06:00] so many of us put to the wayside because we’re in this hurry, this constant rush to get things done. Okay. I got to jump into the work. I’ve got to answer this email. I’ve got to answer this call.
Dina: I’ve got to do these things. So we’re constantly, if we’re at the mercy of these unconscious thoughts, most of them that are running through our brain. We’re just reactive all day long. We’re just jumping from phone call to email to person walking in the door. And we’re feeling hectic inside. We’re not managing ourselves and we’re unable to manage ourselves simply because we don’t have the awareness of what’s going on in our brain.
Dina: Right? So a lot of the work I talk about is time management, right? So I work with. you know, people privately. And then I also have a program specifically around time piece and helping lawyers like really calm their overwhelm and plan and all that. But we’re talking mindset all the time because it’s not about the calendar.
Dina: It’s not even about your work that you put on the [00:07:00] calendar. It’s about how you are thinking about your work. It’s about how you’re thinking about your ability to manage the work. It’s how you’re thinking about yourself and what you’re making it mean. If you don’t do the work, if you don’t enter your billing, if you don’t do those kinds of things, right?
Dina: And that has a tremendous impact, negative impact. If you’re thinking a lot of the thoughts that a lot of lawyers I work with initially come to me thinking, right? So I have this. analogy of, think about a firefighter, right? They go up to a house and it’s on fire, right? And there’s a lot of options of thoughts they could be thinking about this house on fire, right?
Dina: One set of thoughts is, oh my gosh, the house is on fire. Another is, this is so bad. Or another is, oh my gosh, if I go inside, I could get hurt. I could die, right? And if they focus on those thoughts, that mindset, They’re going to run in the opposite direction.
Elizabeth: Yeah.
Dina: But a firefighter is [00:08:00] really trained to have a different kind of mindset and it takes practice, right?
Dina: We can’t just like. Think there’s no place like home and suddenly we’re in Kansas. We actually have to practice this. And so a firefighter, they go through specialized training to get experience going into these high stress environments. And so when they look at a fire, it’s not that they’re not thinking, Oh, the house is on fire.
Dina: They’re not, they’re thinking that, but they’re also thinking I can do this. I can figure this out. I can help them. Let’s take this one step at a time. And so they are consciously using mindset to calm their nervous system down. So they’re not feeling overwhelmed. They’re not feeling anxiety or pressure or stress going into a situation.
Dina: A lot of people would just call is innately high stress, kind of like a trial. So if this firefighter is not consciously managing [00:09:00] their mind, they are going to be in a high stress position. They’re going to have this heightened state and they are not going to think clearly. They’re not going to be able to perform.
Dina: There’s a higher likelihood that they’re going to get hurt. There’s a higher likelihood that the person inside if there’s someone inside is not going to make it. Right. So if you are going into trial thinking that a trial is just an innately hard thing that is just got to be stressful and it’s got to be really tough and you don’t really want to go, I don’t want to go and all the things right.
Dina: It’s going to be harder and it’s going to increase problems that are going to happen in a trial regardless, like if you’re not paying attention, there’s going to be evidentiary issues. There’s going to be all kinds of things. And if you’re not managing your mind, you’re not going to see them. And if they happen, you’re going to be more reactionary and you’re not going to think about the consequences of whatever decision you make in the moment.
Elizabeth: So it’s obviously, I mean, you know, very [00:10:00] much a building block of, we’ve got to figure out from the very start, get go, get thinking on the right track. It’s not just, Hey, here’s a calendar, fill it up blocks in time. Like not how it works, you’ll just go back and make the same mistake again. It’s like, I’m sure you’ve read somewhere where people tell you, you know, Dina, I’ve bought all these planners and none of them work.
Dina: Oh, yeah. And now they have these things where there’s AI and you can, if you just type your work in, it’ll pop out a schedule for you. And I’m like, yeah, whatever. So those kinds of things are out there and we’re so desperate in our society to feel some control around our time. But the interesting thing is that we’re looking for something outside of us to control the time for us.
Dina: I’ve had so many lawyers tell me, I wish I just had a secretary who just would tell me what to do. I’m like, that is the opposite of control. That is the opposite of taking charge of your practice. And it’s just so fascinating that when we don’t have the tools that we just hope [00:11:00] somebody else will take care of it for us.
Elizabeth: Yeah, it’s true. And I think, you know, we do hard things. Lawyers do really hard things. And sometimes it’s just when we have this. overwhelm, frustration, things fall through the track, you know, you’re not having some news helping you that need help. Like you do sometimes just like, oh, you know, throw up your hands and just like, I wish somebody else would do this when it’s like, well, it’s really this really kind of small few things.
Elizabeth: And then it’s really makes it a lot easier.
Dina: Yeah. I mean, I saw that with my own trial practice and this was something I learned late in my trial practice because there was nobody at my office who have these kinds of skills. Nobody had heard about a coach. I mean, it’s kind of like this vague thing. It’s like, like, what do you do exactly as a coach?
Dina: What do you cheer me on? You know, it’s like, no, but it’s interesting because. A lot of the lawyers I worked with, they overworked themselves. A lot of them you could tell were unhealthy because they were not putting time into their health. [00:12:00] And for those who were, I mean, they always had someone in the background kind of taking care of the world.
Dina: Like you could see this with a lot of male attorneys, you know, it’s like, Oh, okay. Your wife takes care of everything. You just do trials like, Oh, okay. So they can take care of themselves, but I think female attorneys are in this unique position because not only are you doing your trial work, but you’re also expected to do other things, right?
Dina: You might be able to ask for help, but at the same time, you are in charge of transporting people or I don’t have kids, but I saw this with other trial attorneys, they had their own responsibilities. I had other responsibilities that were outside of that, but it was just really interesting to watch the attorneys.
Dina: And they’re not all men attorneys have it all together, but there were the very few that I saw were usually men who had like somebody else helping them like in a large capacity. But when I learned later in my [00:13:00] trial career is that the stress that I felt in my trials early on didn’t have to be that way if I planned.
Dina: And I was like, wait a minute, what? And I didn’t jump into planning right away. I really took it really small. Like I took small steps for myself. So can I just offer some of that for people listening just to take like a small step for themselves? Yeah, absolutely. So for me, I started with the baby step of my morning routine because I hated how I felt in the morning.
Dina: So I didn’t really think I had any control over it for a long time. I just thought, Oh, this is just what it is. This is my day. I just get up and I run and I go and I all the things and I’m already rushed. But then I started to just notice how I felt. It was just one morning. I just. felt so rushed and I just decided, I don’t like feeling this way.
Dina: I just don’t like it. And so I said, well, what can I do about it? And so I think that was the only, or the first time that I ever really said that to myself, which is what [00:14:00] can I do about it? Like, it doesn’t just have to be this way. And I said, well, I guess I could wake up a little earlier. And so I started playing with the idea of, okay, what does it look like from, what do I want my morning routine to look like?
Dina: Do I want to have a cup of coffee? Do I want to be able to sit and, you know, journal? What do I want? I never asked myself those questions. So when I just asked myself this about my mornings, then I started to make a shift. But what I noticed is that shift didn’t happen overnight because what happened is the next morning, I still woke up late.
Dina: I still picked up the phone and, you know, hit snooze a dozen times. I still scrolled. I still did all the same habits. And I was like, well, gosh, like why, why? Am I not? And I think that was the first time I didn’t beat myself up for not doing what I said I would do. I think it’s the first time I just got curious.
Dina: And I think that’s where we really hit a block when we’re trying to create a new habit, is we beat ourselves up for not doing it differently because we tell ourselves, well, I should know better, [00:15:00] versus just getting curious, like, why not? And so then I discovered, well, you know, I didn’t sleep very well because I stayed up the night before and, you know, I had coffee late, you know, in the afternoon and so I could then analyze it like it was a science project and not make it mean anything about me.
Dina: And so then I started to really have this routine and I could see, oh, I can’t leave my phone in the room. I have to put it in the other room because otherwise I’ll just stay in bed, right? So it’s those kinds of things that. When we start to make progress on just one little thing, one little habit. In our life, we begin to get more confidence that we have more power, that we have more control over our life, that we don’t have to be at the mercy of what time, you know, court starts.
Dina: We don’t have to be at the mercy of whatever else we think we’re at the mercy of. We can take charge of our life.
Elizabeth: Absolutely. And I think having just thinking about being curious and [00:16:00] also just starting with something as simple as what time you wake up in the morning. And so many times, I’m sure you’ve probably heard this again, but that people will say, well, I tried to mirror, like, you know, name some highly productive person or multimillionaire and it just didn’t work.
Elizabeth: And I’m like, well, you know, cause when you try to force such a giant change, it really makes it really impossible, but. It’s so funny. We are highly evolved creatures. We, especially, you know, going to law school, we get all this training and like, it’s just sometimes super simple just to trick your body and just like put the phone in another room.
Elizabeth: Yeah. You know, they shiny object syndrome. I mean, that’s basically one of the first things I did when I was like, okay, what’s distracting me. It’s. this thing, it’s going in the other room. So if I really wanted it, I would have to get up and go and just that little thing. I was like, I didn’t do it. So it’s really sometimes such small things that you can experiment with to figure out like what’s going to make you feel even just [00:17:00] a little bit better.
Elizabeth: You know, using your time to do something other than rush out the door or immediately get to
Dina: work. Yeah, and I think a question to ask, like it’s good for all of us to ask this question is where do I feel frustrated, right? Where am I frustrated throughout my day? Am I frustrated when it’s 11 30 and I don’t have any food in my office and I end up going and getting some garbage food across the street, right?
Dina: Does that frustrate me? And then ask yourself, well, what do I want to do about it? And so that might mean that, okay, well, maybe I create a plan where I get some healthier foods and I just stock them in the fridge. You know, it’s just those little questions we can ask ourselves and reduce the frustrations throughout our day.
Dina: Because if you think about it. We’re batteries, right? But we have finite amounts of energy throughout the day. So if you start a day fully charged with a lot of lawyers, a lot of us don’t start fully charged, right? But if you did [00:18:00] start fully charged, by the end of the day, you’ve made a million decisions.
Dina: You have done a lot of work and your battery is depleted, which is why when you get home, you feel so exhausted. But what people don’t know is that our emotions can be very big power drains. So when we feel overwhelmed, when we feel anxiety, when we feel frustration and stress, it’s like Putting your phone in the freezer, it like zaps all of the energy from your phone.
Dina: If you’ve ever brought your phone up to the mountains and you’re like, why is my phone dead? It’s like, it’s because it’s been zapped of its power. So the emotions, when we get into those kinds of emotions, they can drain us. So if you start to reduce your frustrations, you’re going to find that the less frustrated you are throughout the day, you’re going to get just like a little bit of energy.
Dina: You’ll have a little less in the middle of the day. Oh my gosh, why didn’t I think about this and this? You’ll have thought about it. You’ll have taken care of it.
Elizabeth: Absolutely. And I [00:19:00] think, you know, you mentioned earlier about just like having a trial docket and learning how to plan that. And that’s one of the things that is really hard as a newbie or even even 10 years out.
Elizabeth: Nobody really tells you that. And that’s one of the biggest things that I gathered when I went off and I did my fellowship with. Don Keenan was, we did three major trials, but we did them all the same planning. And so it was like, Oh, like there was a lot of like relief of knowing, Oh, okay. There was delegation.
Elizabeth: There was. Planned out time, you knew what time things were going to happen, and so even though trials can be so chaotic, we had a plan to know, okay, this for sure is what’s happening, and that’s the same thing that can happen any day of trial, you know, of having or being a litigation lawyer is that every day somebody, like you said, could walk in the door with something different, or there’s a fire that has to be put out that day, and it is those little things of like, well, let me just plan for what I know I have to do every day, which is eat.
Elizabeth: Mm Yeah, and what I [00:20:00] know will drain me and I feel like sometimes we’ve Until you kind of start to experiment with like, Oh, why don’t I block just a, you know, 30 minutes after that hearing, even if I know that drive is only going to take 15 minutes, maybe you can just decompress for 10 minutes or, you know, having that set list of groceries that no matter what happens, you’re always going to buy, you know, carrots, hummus, and like something else that’s good for you, no matter what.
Elizabeth: And so there’s so many little things that to experiment with. And I feel like sleep and food. Yeah.
Dina: Top of the list.
Elizabeth: Yes. Yeah. To manage that energy and, you know, to really just kind of check in and say like, wow, I am exhausted. Why did I plan to have, you know, back to back hearings and meetings with people when I knew I was going to use all my brain power in that hearing?
Dina: Yeah. And I think that really comes to a point where you mentioned about. giving yourself a little time to decompress. And one of the things I see with lawyers, we [00:21:00] tend to like to squish things in our day. So we’re like, Oh, I’ve got an extra five minutes here. Let me put this 20 minute project in that five minutes.
Dina: I can definitely make some progress on it. And so we’re just like mushing stuff into our day, thinking that we should be able to get it all done. But what I want to offer is that giving yourself. A little bit of decompression time between projects, between meetings makes a world of difference. I had a client who was just having back to back consults and she was noticing she was forgetting writing notes.
Dina: She wasn’t, you know, doing things and I’m like, okay, let’s talk this through. And so she realized, oh, hey, I’m not giving myself any space between these meetings. I don’t want to have so many meetings in one day. I want to have those delegated or. Designated for specific days during the week, instead of just kind of letting my assistant hodgepodge them throughout the week, like let me decide where I want to have these sessions.
Dina: So then I give myself the space that I need. And [00:22:00] then she started doing that with her whole calendar and she started recognizing that her billing went up, that she felt more energized at the end of the day. She was taking better care of herself because she had those moments to take a breath, get organized, and then she could move into the next task.
Elizabeth: Yes. I feel like sometimes just even like remembering, like, you’re going to have to use the restroom at some point.
Dina: Like, leave space. Yeah. Please leave space because there are some people that I’ve talked to who do not use the restroom or I, before they worked with me, I think they didn’t use the restroom because they were like, I’ve got to build this.
Dina: So just give yourself the grace. You deserve to be treated like a human and not a robot. Need bathroom breaks.
Elizabeth: Yes. And eating breakfast and eating lunch and not skipping a meal. It always, you know, I know for trial lawyers, it’s, and I’m sure you probably had this too, like you just get so nervous you can’t even eat anything more than, you know, like a granola bar.
Elizabeth: Mm-hmm . But it’s just mm-hmm . The more you play with like the energy [00:23:00] intake and all that kind of stuff, the more you realize, like, okay, I may not feel like it, but I got to overcome whatever the stress is happening in my brain. And I know my body needs this.
Dina: Yeah. I mean, if you think about a marathon runner, they may not feel like eating, but you bet they’re eating.
Dina: Right. I actually learned this late in my practice too, which is I need to have a meal. And it needs to be something like it doesn’t have to be a rich meal or anything like that, but it needs to be something like a salad and some protein because protein is energy. And if I don’t have that energy in the second half of the day, my performance is going to wane.
Dina: So same thing with a runner. They’re paying attention to what is their food intake? How are they sleeping? Like what they need to pay attention to those things. So when we start to think of our performance as reliant upon the input, the fuel that we give ourselves, it makes it a little bit easier to say, okay, I may not feel like eating, but having this bit of protein is going to help me in the second half of the day.
Elizabeth: Absolutely. And don’t get me started on protein. We could probably do a whole episode [00:24:00] on eating protein. You know, as a building block of energy and, you know, keeping us all going. So, so let’s talk a little bit about, okay. So we talked about the core, you know, block of everything, which is getting your mindset straight.
Elizabeth: And I know you’re not going to make a schedule for us, but tell us a little bit more about like what it means, like, as far as, you know, I think you mentioned time piece, like tell us a little bit more about kind of what you do.
Dina: Yeah. So I mean, there’s basically, it’s very simple to manage your time. I will share them with your audience.
Dina: Like it’s, that’s not a problem. It’s a beautiful thing, but that’s not where the problem comes in. The problem comes in with implementing, which is where I come in, but I will share exactly the steps to manage your time. Do you want to hear them? Of course. Okay. No.
Elizabeth: Okay.
Dina: So, so basically you start with, you know, you’ve got a bunch to do, right?
Dina: You’ve got your different things in your emails. You know, there’s different people who, [00:25:00] you know, things on your voicemail, you’ve got things in your inbox. Okay. You’ve got probably appointments on your calendar. That’s usually what lawyers use their calendar for is just the appointments. Maybe they put deadlines on there.
Dina: That’s it. What they don’t do is think about their whole week, right? And they don’t think about it in a way that allows them to think, what can I delegate? What is the most important thing for me to do? What can I take off my to do list this week? What can be put off to another time? We can’t even think about those things until we think consciously about the things that we need to do.
Dina: A lot of lawyers have a to do list, and it’s just this ongoing running to do list.
Elizabeth: I can show you mine.
Dina: And a to do list itself is not a bad thing, but what are you doing with it? Like you might have a very effective. way of using your to do list. I have no way of knowing. But if you have a [00:26:00] really effective way of using your to do list and you don’t feel overwhelmed and you don’t feel overworked, then great by all means keep doing that.
Dina: But if you create a list of items and you go through them and you look for the ones that are the most important, maybe there are deadlines on Friday. Let’s say today is Monday. You’ve got some motions or whatever due on Friday. Okay. So you’re like, okay, I want to work on those, you know, other items. What needs to take priority this week?
Dina: I need to talk to this client. I need to talk to this client. I need to get this project going so that I can turn it in. next week, right? So maybe there’s an email you need to send out. So basically you list out everything you need to do now at this point, only spend about 10, 15 minutes doing this. I know a lawyer can spend like hours doing this.
Dina: If you do 10 to 15 minutes of this, I guarantee you, you have the most important things on that list. Don’t use this as your procrastination time. 10 15 minutes [00:27:00] tops to write that list. Now go through that list and circle the items that need to get done this week. And then next to each of those items, estimate how long each are going to take.
Dina: And this is where so many lawyers get caught up. Because they tell themselves, I don’t know how to estimate. That is not true. You estimate all the time. So go in, make an estimate of how long you think it’s going to take. If you really don’t know, add a little extra time to it. And then. Once you do all that, I want you to go back and I want you to put yourself on the to do list.
Dina: What do you want? Do you want to go to the gym three times this week? Do you want to do something else this week? What do you want? Do you want to have 30 minutes every morning so that you can sit with your coffee and just, you know, scroll social media because it’s fun. Whatever you want to do, I want you to put it on the list and then I want you to look at Do you have any other commitments?
Dina: Do you have commitments with your [00:28:00] spouse? Do you have commitments with your kids? Like anything else like that, put that on the list too. Because there’s an order of operations. When you put these things on the calendar, knowing that yes, you already have appointments and already on the calendar, that’s fine.
Dina: You’re going to put the items that are a priority in this order on your calendar. You first. You have to go on the calendar first. Wait a minute. Hold on a second. What about my
Elizabeth: consultations and my
Dina: I mean, that stuff, it’s just there. It’s like, I just pretend it’s like, okay. But we got to put you on the calendar, right?
Dina: So. You have to be the person who decides I’m leaving the office. This was me. I’m just describing what I did. I’m leaving the office at four o’clock to go to yoga at four 30. That is my non negotiable. I would leave the office four o’clock. Boom. Okay. Four o’clock. Was everybody else leaving at four o’clock?
Dina: No, but I knew that later than that I was going to be exhausted and then I wasn’t going to go. So I needed to prioritize that [00:29:00] for myself. I would do the work. I wasn’t worried about that, you know? So. I made that a priority for myself and that went on the calendar first. And it seems so counterintuitive.
Dina: And I think a lot of women have a problem with this idea of putting themselves first, because. They’re trained, we’re trained to put everybody else first and that everybody else gets our attention. Everybody else gets our time. But when do we get to have that time? So it’s important to start training your mind.
Dina: So this is where mindset comes in to say, look, what I want is important. And so you have to believe that in order to put yourself on the calendar first. What I want is important. And if you’re not putting yourself on the calendar, you’re not believing that what you want is important. Which is, it stinks to say that out loud, but I mean, it’s huge and that’s
Elizabeth: sometimes like probably the biggest, [00:30:00] hardest realization that people have when they look at their calendars and their lives and just realize like, oh, I’m not putting myself forward or first at all.
Elizabeth: Like, what does that say about how I feel about myself?
Dina: Yeah, because the calendar really reveals a lot, right? So, Oh, I’m giving my time to these organizations that I don’t even care about. Why am I doing that? Oh, I don’t have anything that involves me on my calendar. Why not? And that’s when it comes down to what do I really think about myself?
Dina: What do I really think? Am I not valuing myself and my time? So it can be kind of confronting when you start getting into the conversations and coaching around time management because we start to see, Oh, I am not looking at myself as my most valuable asset in my business. Right? I’m not treating myself like the fuel for my business to continue to grow because I’m not putting myself on the calendar.
Dina: I’m not putting time on my calendar to work on my business. So if I’m not doing that, nobody else is going to do it. I’m responsible for that. [00:31:00] Yeah. No. Back to the order of operations.
Elizabeth: Okay. So we’re making a list. We’re putting ourselves first. Okay.
Dina: Calendaring yourself
Elizabeth: first. Okay. Yes.
Dina: And then you put on the calendar, your family commitments, your friend commitments, all that good stuff.
Dina: And then you put on the work, right? Then you put in, okay, and this is where I want to give this tip. Start to pay attention to your energy levels throughout the day because everybody’s a little different. My energy is highest in the morning, and so I’ll put my more the things I need to think more about early in the morning, whereas in the afternoons, I’ll tend to put things that aren’t as focus dependent, and it makes my life easier.
Dina: So at the end of the day, we tend to be. You know, our energy is coming down and we’ve maybe done some heavy lifting earlier in the day. And so if we’re putting high intensity [00:32:00] projects in the afternoon, we’re might be setting ourselves up for failure. So just notice that where you’re putting things on your calendar.
Dina: And then put space in between your calendar. Start to just pay attention. Like, Hey, do I have back to back meetings? When I look at my calendar, how do I feel? If I feel overwhelmed, how can I make my life easier? Like ask yourself those questions. Where can I delegate, right? What order of operations needs to be done?
Dina: And that brings me to big projects, right? Like trials. So a trial isn’t, you know, it could be, all right, all day long, I’m going to be in court. But most of the time you’re not in court. You’re preparing for trial. You are creating exhibit lists or you’re organizing exhibits. You’re thinking about the questions you need to be asking.
Dina: You’re reviewing documents, you’re reviewing depositions, you’re reviewing all these things, right? So if you are not blocking time specifically for those items. And you’re just saying, I’m going to work on the [00:33:00] Smith file all day long. You’re setting yourself up for failure. You want to give yourself designated blocks.
Dina: So you want to say, if you’ve got the Smith trial you’re working on, before you put it on your calendar in blocks, you want to think about, okay, what do I need to do specifically in the Smith trial? Estimate how long each of those individual tasks are going to take, and then you can spread them out so you’re not getting burned out on the Smith file.
Elizabeth: Absolutely. Or trying to start the thing that makes you least excited. Like maybe it’s an opening statement and you’re just like, Oh, I don’t want to do that. You just sit there instead of doing, you know, like work on a cross exam or read, you know, I mean, it’s kind of one of those things like reading your energy and it’s definitely, you know, happens where you’re just like, again, mindset, like, I’m not good at this.
Elizabeth: Therefore, I’m not going to start this. Um, but it’s like, Okay, let me make a list. Let me at least organize and use this time for, like you said, like the Smith file or writing cross exam, [00:34:00] which people love or, you know, doing direct exam, like writing it out and, you know, when you take those steps further out, people always run into me and they’re like.
Elizabeth: Oh, in two weeks, I’m starting this trial and I’m just like, okay, and just walk me through what’s your, you know, order of proof. And like, let’s talk about that. I was like, oh, well, I haven’t done that yet. I’m just like, oh, okay. You know, just take a step back. But it’s so funny how much work we can get done ahead of time.
Elizabeth: Even if you feel like, oh, well, this is going to change because of emotion limiting or that’s going to change because they have the like, Okay. Just getting in and having that think time and writing it down like significantly helps you in the moment when you get there to know you’ve at least done reviewed and at least had a start on something.
Dina: Yeah, I think that’s something we underestimate how much we can get done when we use. Those brief moments, like if you give yourself an hour on a day to, like, think about the opening, right? Or an hour to think about [00:35:00] the exhibits and organize them, right? That has a compound effect. So, by the time you’re about to go into trial, oh, you’ve taken care of everything because you were paying attention to it.
Dina: And I just think about it in terms of. If I’m not thinking 10 steps ahead, then when the day comes of trial, I am going to feel so flustered that I won’t be able to think straight. And that’s not good for me. It’s not for good for anybody in the courtroom.
Elizabeth: Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, and I also feel like. Sometimes when you walk in or you watch a trial or you watch a motion, the lawyer that knows their file forward and backwards, it’s like smooth sailing versus you’ve seen the lawyers that get flustered and they just, you know, they’re looking, they’re digging around or trying to find an answer.
Elizabeth: And so it’s like, even just having, like you said, 1 hour at a time or 2 hours at a time and just being in that file really helps you just know the facts so well. [00:36:00] When there is something that comes up, that’s, you know, you weren’t expecting. It’s okay. Cause you at least know, like you said, okay. So they said, Hey, so I’ve got one, two, three.
Elizabeth: Okay. What’s going to work, you know? And so it really helps you be able to think on your feet, 10 steps ahead.
Dina: Yeah. And it’s also, I mean, trials are show. And I remember being a prosecutor and you always want to know your case front. You know, forwards and backwards. And you always wanted to know it so well that it was very clear to the judge that you knew what you were talking about and to the defense attorney that you knew what you were talking about.
Dina: So that if you were going to resolve that case, which is the goal so often. That was going to be the time because you knew your case so well and you knew the value of your case that the opposing counsel wasn’t going to pull one over you. And they also were more inclined to try to settle the case. And the judge would sometimes put a little pressure and be like, are you sure you want to go to trial?[00:37:00]
Dina: Do you see what’s happening here? So it’s important that we also do that for the sake of, in the civil context, it’s like for the sake of the client. It’s like, okay, what’s in their best interest?
Elizabeth: Absolutely. And, you know, most of the time, you know, in civil cases, they go years and years and years. So there are mountains and mountains of facts that go in with all that stuff.
Elizabeth: So it’s, you know, it’s again, having an organized, thoughtful planning way to go about revisiting and getting things ready for the show. That trial is really just. It puts you head and shoulders above so many other trial lawyers that are out there. And again, it makes a huge impression on judges.
Dina: Yes. But yeah, when you go into a courtroom confident, it’s going to make a difference in your case.
Dina: Managing and planning your time out in a way that’s effective is going to give you an advantage.
Elizabeth: Yes. And let me just point out confidence is different than the ego. [00:38:00] Yeah, yeah, definitely people who instead of planning, just try to rely on ego and that, you know, I can tell you jurors see just right through that very quickly.
Elizabeth: If you were just trying to rely on ego versus You know, confidence and knowing your file.
Dina: Oh, we can help. We could do some more stories on ego on this one.
Elizabeth: I love your three steps. I will say just from my personal experience in trying to, you know, grow business and really try to manage my time. I love this idea and I started to do it. I just call it my Sunday planning and I just take. 20 minutes. That’s all I’ll allow myself to do because I’ll do it for hours and do the same thing and just look at, you know, the week ahead and the week next and just not 20 minutes.
Elizabeth: Like you said, make some priorities, you know, puts things in different places so that I can Make time correctly. And I think one of the fallacies of every [00:39:00] person, no matter where you were, is we always underestimate the amount of time it’s going to take to do a task. Yeah. So having a little extra padding is just, you know, and not being hard on yourself for not getting things done at the perfect timing.
Elizabeth: I do want to
Dina: add this though, because this is something that’s so fascinating. And I’ve seen this. You in court where all right, it’s 12 o’clock council. I want you to find the answer to this question and come back at the 1 30 so that we can resolve this. And so having that hour because essentially I need to eat.
Dina: I need to get the answer. All of that in that hour and a half walk to court. I could do that. I researched, I found the answer, but it was because I had that limited time. I was able to do that and not feel like, okay, I need to spend five hours researching. And I think that sometimes I don’t know if you’re guilty of this.
Dina: I know I [00:40:00] have been going into research. We think we need to know everything versus let’s narrow it down to a specific topic. Let’s really narrow the search terms and then let’s go in and focus on that particular topic. And if you give yourself a limited time, like if you say an hour, you will be more likely to do that.
Dina: So there are certain tasks.
Dina: I’m only allowing myself 20 minutes to do this. I’m only allowing myself an hour of research on this particular topic. And then if I find something that’s particularly relevant, and I think I need additional time, I’ll find the time. But that can really help limit the procrastination of going down a rabbit hole.
Elizabeth: Oh, absolutely. And I totally, absolutely agree. I think it kind of goes back to when you’re sitting that estimate things like, and you’re going to write a blog or you’re going to write, you know, like 15 minutes is just not really. Let’s be [00:41:00] adequate, but I also love the same thing of like, okay, I have an hour.
Elizabeth: I need to get this done now because I am totally that way. Like if I’m going to research something, oh my gosh, I go down so many rabbit trails and I have, you know, and so one of the best pieces of advice is sometimes I got from the coaches I work with was like, okay, Elizabeth, just do three. Okay. Don’t do 10.
Elizabeth: Okay. Don’t try to find 10, just three. Really, really. I’m like, okay. Okay. But that’s really kind of one of those things where it’s like. We love research. Lawyers love to investigate and just find everything possible. And I’m, but you know, it’s like, Limit it. Give yourself an hour. Give yourself the rule of three, you know, because at the end of the day, like everything we have has a time limit.
Elizabeth: Opening statements have a limit, you know, the day has a limit in court. You know, we want to make sure that we really focus in and use our time correctly. But absolutely. I love the idea. And that’s what I do to myself too. Is like, when my calendar goes thing, then it’s done and I got to move on to the next thing in order to make sure that I have enough time to get it [00:42:00] done.
Elizabeth: Yes. Love it. Awesome. Thank you so much. Okay. Well, is there anything else to share? Because I know like thinking through, we’ve talked, we’ve covered so many wonderful things. Mindset, you know, the three top tools that you just talked about as far as prioritizing and calendaring and putting yourself first, which is So essential it is for any lawyer.
Elizabeth: So is there anything else that you feel like kind of can stand in the way, like thinking of like what the way lawyers think about things that maybe we just, we can’t even see that it’s standing in our way.
Dina: Yeah. I mean, one of the biggest things, and you did touch on this, is how we talk to ourselves. And I like to, Say it this way, which is talk to yourself like you want to succeed because so often we don’t talk to ourselves like we want to succeed.
Dina: We tell ourselves this is so hard. I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m such a bad attorney. Like, shouldn’t I know this by now? Like, what are people gonna think about me? Are they gonna think I’m a failure? And really, when we think about what other [00:43:00] people think about us, it’s actually a reflection of what we’re thinking about ourselves.
Dina: So, really, we don’t see how we’re talking to ourselves day to day. We’re not recognizing all the little digs that we make at ourselves, like, Oh, I should have known that one. Oh my gosh, I’m such a moron. There’s some people who talk like that to themselves. And I used to be really mean to myself, like I created so much shame around The work that I was doing and it put me in a position where I would overwork because I was trying to outwork the feeling of failure.
Dina: I was trying to really push myself to perform, but I was doing it at my own expense, at my own mental and physical wellbeing, because I felt like I needed to prove that I was. good enough, but I was always good enough. We’re born good enough, but because I was speaking to myself in that way, I had the mindset of somebody who didn’t really truly believe it.
Dina: And so it was really [00:44:00] causing a lot of problems. It was also causing a lot of procrastination because the more I pressured myself, the less I wanted to do and the less energy I had to do it. So a lot of people blame themselves for that. They tell themselves there’s something wrong with them, that there really is something bad or malfunctioning.
Dina: It’s not that at all. It’s just a mindset thing that needs to be addressed. And one of the ways you can begin addressing it is by having compassion towards yourself, really recognizing that you are a hard worker, that you are good enough, that what you want matters. And at first you might not even believe those words.
Dina: If I’m saying it out of my mouth and you’re hearing this, and this is the position you find yourself in listening to this, then you might not even believe it. But I want you to know that it does take practice thinking those thoughts because it’s a new mindset. It’s a new way of being. It’s a new way of recognizing your value and it requires you having fierce compassion for yourself and [00:45:00] reminding yourself of how good you really are and all of the things that you are doing right.
Dina: All the reasons why you are good enough and you are doing the things that you are meant to be doing. So I would add that.
Elizabeth: What a wonderful, wonderful addition. And just so true. I mean, you started off telling us we have 60, 000 thoughts a day and a lot of them are the same ones. And unfortunately they’re mostly about ourselves.
Elizabeth: You know, it’s such a gentle, true reminder, but just so lovely. Okay. Before we end, I want you to tell us a little about your time piece management.
Dina: Oh yeah. Okay. So, well, first of all, I have a podcast called be a better lawyer, but I say that because I talk a lot about time management and mindset in the podcast and I have a program that is specifically where I’m working with lawyers inside a group and it’s all about time management.
Dina: And if you go to Dina Cataldo. [00:46:00] com forward slash time piece, I actually, it’s not open for enrollment right now, but I have a. Freebie there. So if you want to learn more about it and get some mindset working, it’s a workbook that allows you to really think through some of the issues we talked about in this episode, even so link the show notes for that.
Dina: Oh, excellent. Yeah. So time piece is really where we talk about. All things time management. And this week we were talking about resistance to doing work, resistance to, you know, doing the things we know, like we tell ourselves we should be doing. And so every week there’s usually a theme that goes along with what everybody is experiencing that week.
Elizabeth: Awesome. That sounds amazing. So, okay. So we know we want to know more. We have your podcast, being able to be a better lawyer. And then even if somebody wanted to work with you one on one, I know there’s strategy calls that you do as well.
Dina: I do. And I work with lawyers who have their own businesses. And [00:47:00] they want to grow their businesses and they want to do it without feeling overwhelmed.
Dina: So if that describes you and you’re listening to this and you’re vibing with our conversation, you can book a strategy session at Dina Cataldo. com forward slash strategy session. And we can talk about what that would look like.
Elizabeth: Awesome. Yeah. We’ll have links to everything in the show notes. Also, I want to plug your LinkedIn cause it’s always lovely and you put wonderful things out there as well to help people.
Elizabeth: So a great podcast as well with lots of really. Interesting, but like super helpful things to, if you’re growing a business, which most of us who are in employment and personal injury, we’re out there plugging ourselves away in our solo small firm. So I’m so glad that you were here to share with us and we’ll put all the links and everything in the show notes.
Elizabeth: So thank you so much, Gina, for coming and talking us through and giving us some wonderful tips. I won’t say strategies because really time management. If we call it a strategy, that means it’s like a time hack or whatever, which is totally not. It’s a [00:48:00] fundamental, you know, learning to, like you said, talk to yourself and having a mindset and putting yourself first and being super healthy about the relationship you have with time.
Dina: Oh yeah. This is a really great conversation. Thanks for having me on. Of course. Thank you.
Even with the mounting pressures of trial preparation, Elizabeth offers three straightforward strategies any lawyer can implement: strategic timelines that tap into natural chronological thinking, active notepad writing to command attention, and the persuasive rule of threes.
Whether you prefer simple sketches or polished presentations, Elizabeth offers guidance on easy techniques that pave the way for a successful trial strategy.
In this episode, you will hear:
Strategies for mastering courtroom persuasion for trial lawyers
Utilizing timelines to organize narratives and simplify complex information
Techniques for enhancing jury engagement through storytelling
Practical tips on using giant notepads for courtroom attention and memory retention
The power of the “rule of threes” in simplifying and organizing presentations
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Supporting Resources:
Learn more about how Elizabeth helps trial lawyer here.
Join the Trial Lawyer Prep Newsletter to get quick tips and ideas for your case preparation and trial persuasion. Go here to join.
Episode Credits
If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.
Join Elizabeth Larrick as she shares insights on developing trial strategies that resonate with juries. This episode is designed for trial lawyers seeking to enhance their courtroom success by focusing on a comprehensive strategy rather than just meeting deadlines or relying on emotional narratives. Elizabeth delves into the importance of using focus groups to anticipate jury reactions and prepare multiple contingency plans for trial preparation.
Gain tips on crafting compelling narratives, prioritizing crucial information, and employing strategic questioning. Learn how to sequence witnesses and evidence to streamline your courtroom presentation. Elizabeth emphasizes the significance of flexibility in your plans to handle unexpected challenges.
In this episode, you will hear:
Understanding trial strategy beyond deadlines and persuasive elements
Importance of a cohesive, big-picture plan considering the jury’s perspective
Utilizing focus groups to predict jury reactions and develop contingency plans
Crafting memorable and clear narratives through effective communication
Strategic sequencing of witnesses and evidence to streamline presentations
Simplifying and prioritizing information for impactful trial presentations
Follow and Review:
We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.
Supporting Resources:
Be sure to check out the Michelle Gessner episodes to hear about her trial strategy formulated from the focus groups.
If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.
In this episode of Trial Lawyer Prep, Elizabeth Larrick discusses the importance of immediate and thorough reflection on focus group feedback for trial lawyers. She emphasizes early recording of impressions, detailed review within seven days, and actionable steps to improve trial strategies. Elizabeth shares her methods for compiling and analyzing data to ensure focus group insights are effectively utilized in courtroom preparations.
00:00 Introduction to Trial Lawyer Prep
00:40 Welcome and Episode Overview
00:53 The Importance of Reflection in Jury Research
02:39 Immediate Reflection After Focus Groups
06:28 Seven-Day Reflection and Analysis
10:03 Implementing Feedback and Next Steps
16:08 Conclusion and Additional Resources
Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Welcome to Trial Lawyer Prep. What if you could hang out with trial lawyers and jury consultants? Ask them about connecting with clients and juries more effectively. Then take strategies, tactics, and insights to increase your success. Each week, Elizabeth Larrick takes an in depth look at how to regain touch with the everyday world, understand the emotional burden of your clients and juries, and use focus groups in this process.
Elizabeth is an experienced trial lawyer, consultant, and founder of Larrick Law Firm in Austin, Texas. Her goal is to help you connect with juries and clients in order to improve your abilities in the courtroom. Now, here’s Elizabeth. Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. I am glad you’re here. I am your host, Elizabeth. And if you’re joining me today, it is January 1st, 2025.
And. As usual, kind of the end of the year, I thought it would be a great episode to talk about reflection, but more [00:01:00] importantly, talk about using reflection to get the most out of your jury research. Here’s the thing. You spend time and money and energy running focus groups and mock juries to understand better what juries are thinking and what they want to know about your case.
And sometimes all we really want to know is Do we win or do we not win? But what I want to do is give you an episode to talk about how to get the most out of your focus groups. Because what I see so much in lawyers is you get your initial impression and then you just move on and I really don’t want you to miss out on going deeper and getting the most out of what you receive from your focus groups so that you can Use it better and more effectively in your cases,
maybe you are getting ready for trial. Maybe you’ve just done a focus group for mediation. , maybe you’re deciding whether to take a [00:02:00] case or not. Even in all those places, you can learn so much more about what the focus group is giving you and that feedback. If we take a little time to do some reflection.
Now, this episode of course comes out of my own personal reflections in looking at working with lawyers in 2024 and of course the many years before that with focus groups and where folks are missing the mark. And again, don’t want you to do that. You use all this energy and time to create these things, to work, , with others in doing them.
So let’s talk very quickly and make a brief episode here. Point number one. So important to do an immediate reflection after your focus group or mock jury. I see so many lawyers who just finish up and pack up their stuff or leave the zoom and don’t take those moments right after you [00:03:00] finish a focus group to reflect and put their thoughts down on paper.
Yes, of course, all of our focus groups are recorded. However, I rarely see lawyers go back and actually re watch their focus groups. So, if you are going to add any kind of step after your focus groups, after your jury research, it would be to stop what you are doing, sit down, and do an immediate reflection.
Because in even as little as 24 hours, our memory begins to fade, right? That’s just kind of how our brains work. We have to take in new information. So you want to sit down while it is fresh, right? Those immediate things on your brain and write it down, write down those takeaways. Of course, if you have others there with you, that is a great time to sit down and have just a super brief discussion.
And this is what I do with all of the lawyers who work with me in my [00:04:00] focus groups, because I think it is so invaluable to have even a quick discussion after you finish your focus group to ask, what do you think they understood? What do you think they missed? Where do you think they were confused? What surprised you?
What didn’t you hear? that you thought you would hear. Because, , we walk into all of our focus groups testing different facts, testing different evidence, testing sequence , of information, testing our witnesses. And we come in with our preconceived notions. We think, Oh, that particular defense is going to work really well.
Maybe it’s social media posts. Maybe it’s pictures of somebody. Doing a handstand, those have totally happened by the way, and you want to know, oh, those are definitely going to have traction. Well, you already come in as a lawyer and as somebody creating these focus groups [00:05:00] with a preconceived expectation about what they’re going to say.
Did they say it or did they not? You know, that’s kind of one of those things where we can look at when you create your focus group plan and your goals and what are you testing? Like what is a hundred percent going to be in your presentation? That should be a hundred percent. The question you’re asking after you finish, what did I hear about that particular topic?
So many a times when I work with lawyers, what I get back when we do this reflection, this immediate debrief discussion is Oh, well, I didn’t have enough time to give them X information. I always try to bring people back to the core of, I just want to know what is your brain telling you right now about what they get?
What was this feedback that you heard? Because what is so important when you have a round table and you have multiple people to bounce things off is what you’ll hear is. You know, Bobby Joe over here heard that [00:06:00] it was bad, but then, you know, Susie said it was good, so then it’s like, oh, wow, everybody heard a little something different.
Well, who did you hear that from, right? And now you can actually kind of really be able to see and put some things together about different participants, what they’re saying and where it may have come from, because that’s that next level of being able to reflect on what you heard about And why you may have heard it.
And having other people in that immediate reflection time is also very important. Naturally, you want to record all that good stuff too, because the next step in reflection would be to go within the next seven days of your focus group and take a look at the transcript. Take a look at the chat. If you’re virtual or if it’s in person, look at those paper votes.
What was actually written down in the transcript? reactions to the questions. And [00:07:00] what I like to do is compile that information into a chart or enter a table, because when I do that, , creating a memo or creating a report, however you want to label it, but just basically taking that information and taking it from all the separate little places and putting it into one.
So you can really compare what they actually wrote down, what they actually put or said. And when you’re able to do that, your brain. Oh, you get a whole nother level of reflection because you’ve got your initial immediate thoughts and takeaways. Now, when you’re actually going back within those seven days and looking at, Oh, this is really what they said.
Oh, wow. Everybody actually wrote down this same point or something very, very similar. Oh, okay. And how are those people then talking about it? Because one of the good things about having A chat or having in person votes is you can take those what they actually wrote down or what [00:08:00] they typed and then compare it to what they said in discussion to really see.
Did they tell me the truth? Were they actually giving me a true answer to something, or were they just telling me what I wanted to hear? That’s a very good way to check to make sure, okay, was this a good focus group, or did they just tell me what I wanted to hear? Because they’ll trip up somewhere in between those two things.
And the other thing you can do, too, is look at what you presented. Maybe it was an opening statement, or maybe it was a PowerPoint. And in comparison with what they wrote, what they typed, what they said in discussion, , were there pieces where, Oh, you know what? That’s probably why they said that. I added this fact into the timeline, or we mentioned this in the opening statement.
I can hear that reflected in what they’re saying. So then you’re able to really see connections better on the information and then compare it to what your initial thoughts were. Because many of times what will happen is in our initial takeaway. Our brains will get hung up on maybe one comment and typically that comment is negative.[00:09:00]
And then when we go back and we look at in , our seven day reflection, we can see , Oh, that was just one particular person saying the same thing over and over and over again, that my brain got ahold of. Nobody else was saying that. And that way we’d say, okay, so don’t because you don’t want to take action in your case based on one comment from one person that nobody else in the group took ahold of.
That is the danger of what you could be missing out on if you don’t do this extra reflection. So again, the other thing we can do is write down at this point, , we’ve done our immediate reflection, we’ve done our seven day reflection where we’ve really compiled all the thoughts, all the information into a one document.
You can call it a memo, call it a report, but just put it all in one place so it’s easy to find. We need to go back and look at it, but then also that really tells you, okay, what do we test next? What’s the next step for this case and what do we need to retest? And what do we need to [00:10:00] do new for the next one?
And finally, what I like to do is make. an immediate list of changes or steps that need to be taken for the information. , for example, if you did an opening statement, Go in and immediately start putting in those edits or put in those comments so that you can begin to work it into your opening statement.
If you need to create a timeline, go ahead and put that in there. Or if you did create a timeline, move things around, go ahead and make those changes right now while that feedback is fresh on your mind. And then sometimes I will put in a comment, if you’re working in Word, so that I know, Oh, this is where that comes from.
So if I try to change it back or somebody comes and change it again, they can know, Oh, that’s, that came from that focus group where we, we mentioned this. The other thing to do is make a list of action steps for discovery. For example, if the focus group told [00:11:00] you things that they wanted to hear or see, now you need to go ask for that request for production, go ask for that interrogatory.
Or maybe you need to go talk to your expert who’s about to give a deposition or maybe you are creating questions for your deposition for this fact witness you’ve immediately gotten that feedback. And more importantly, what will happen is you can actually use the language that the focus group gave you versus you using lawyer words,
It if you don’t make this list, it’s typically it’s lost, right? What I see a lot of times is lawyers will run focus groups.
We’ll have a memo or report. We’ll have it all in one place. And then we come back together to get ready for an opening statement or we get ready for the next focus group. I’ll say, okay, well, did you go and get that thing that the focus group wanted? Did you ask that expert for that? Did you, and they’re like, Oh, No, no, we didn’t.
I was like, okay, well, it’s lost, right? We don’t want, I don’t want you to lose that. I want you to be able to have that [00:12:00] information and immediately take those steps. That’s the whole purpose of the focus group, right? To not only help us better understand the way the jury thinks, but to help us now shape our case to how they think and how they expect to see this information.
The other thing you can do as well, along with making a list of steps To take or making those immediately changes to your presentation is to do a comparison to your other focus groups. This is something I enjoy doing for my lawyers that work with me on multiple focus groups is we basically end up doing kind of a large visual chart.
Again, you know how I love to make visual aids, but if we can put things in a way where our eyes can really see them right next to each other, who were the jurors that were good profiles, who were the negative profiles, and be able to just really see that, Oh, okay.
Oh, and that when we tested this, Oh, but the next focus group, we took it out. We didn’t put that in. And how did that really change things? That is really helpful for us because, , when we’re coming down [00:13:00] to trial, we’re synthesizing a lot of information, plus new information that is coming across from opposing counsel.
And so to be able to have that, , document where everything is beside itself is extremely helpful to quickly. analyze and then make very quick decisions on things that you need to put into jury selection or opening statement or direct exam cross exam. So recently we had two focus groups on a particular file and we did them two months apart and ran two kind of different styles of focus group.
One was very kind of exploratory, what are the concepts and themes, and the other one was very much directed with a very specific presentation about. The facts and evidence in the case. And what we were able to do is basically look for recurring themes and retest things that we heard that we believe to be positive,
and what that really helped was guide , Oh, did we see it? Did we hear [00:14:00] it? And then have a lot of confidence, , Oh, we did it. So this needs to be included 100%. And , when you’re able to really dive into the focus group feedback, then you can really use it again for the next one.
And then again, gain a lot of confidence, in what is positive for your case. And you will also hear what is dragging down, your case as well. I don’t want you to miss this step. I want you to be able to really get the most out of your focus groups. And so plan the time, right?
You work really hard on the front end. You prepare, you spend money and energy getting ready for these focus groups. Take that extra 30 minutes, right after and just book that on your calendar so that , okay, immediately once I, walk out of that room, those focus group participants leave that room, or I get out, exit out of that Zoom, I’m going to immediately go and write down my thoughts.
And again, this is not a [00:15:00] detailed, what did everybody say list. This is, what are my takeaways? Again, answering those simple questions. What did they understand? What did they not understand? What did they miss? That’s generally always a really good question is what do we give them that they didn’t even talk about?
And then, of course, taking another step of reflection within the seven days to really look at what they actually typed or wrote down for us, in response to directed questions and looking back at that transcript, looking at our presentations, and then putting everything into one document, being either a memo or report, whatever you want to title it, and then being able to go back and compare our initial thoughts with what was actually typed in or said in the transcript.
And of course, that last point, which is taking those immediate steps, we’re making a list, of steps and actions that need to be taken to get the focus group, those folks, what they needed to hear or see or talk to your experts [00:16:00] or your witnesses, even to make sure that that testimony is not lost, but it’s going to be given over to the focus group.
All right. I hope that you enjoyed this episode and take a little more time to do reflection after your focus groups and jury research until next time. Thank you so much. And don’t forget, I do have a monthly trial lawyer prep newsletter. If you’d like to join, check the show notes for the link. All right.
In this episode of Trial Lawyer Prep, we delve into the role that focus groups can play in legal trials. This episode explores whether focus groups are worth the investment, as we continue our conversation with Michelle Gessner. Through a case study involving Wells Fargo, Michelle shares her experience in utilizing focus groups to anticipate juror reactions and refine legal strategies, ultimately providing an edge in the courtroom. This episode underscores the financial considerations and potential rewards of employing focus groups, highlighting how they can reveal juror perceptions and help counteract defense tactics.
Moreover, the episode sheds light on the applications of focus groups in trial preparation, particularly in determining the order of witnesses and enhancing witness preparation. Michelle emphasizes the importance of using focus groups to establish a sequence for presenting evidence, which can significantly influence juror understanding and case outcomes. The discussion also highlights the value of having an external perspective during witness prep to identify potential communication breakdowns. With these insights, trial lawyers can enhance their strategies and increase their chances of achieving favorable outcomes in court. Listeners are encouraged to stay informed by joining the Trial Lawyer Prep newsletter and leveraging the expertise shared in this episode to elevate their trial game.
In this episode, you will hear:
Strategic witness preparation and sequencing based on focus group feedback
Managing financial risks versus benefits of focus group insights
Role of focus groups in shaping depositions, summary judgment briefs, and evidence presentation
Techniques for refining opening statements and trial strategies with focus group feedback
Follow and Review:
We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.
Supporting Resources:
If you have more questions or have an employment matter to talk with Michelle about, please contact her at:
To learn more about Michelle, please visit her website: Gessner Law PLLC
Don’t want to miss an episode of the podcast? Join the Trial Lawyer Prep Newsletter to get an email straight to your inbox with episodes and resources for witness prep, trial strategy and focus groups. Use this link: https://larricklawfirm.com/connect/
Episode Credits
If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.
Join us as we delve into the remarkable $22 million verdict achieved by trial lawyer Michelle Gessner against Wells Fargo. Michelle shares her strategic approach to a high-stakes case involving the wrongful termination of a Wells Fargo employee who requested a work-from-home accommodation under the ADA. This episode is packed with insights for trial lawyers, highlighting the value of focus groups in shaping trial strategy and boosting confidence. Discover how focus groups can refine your opening statements and jury selection, even when limited to a 20-minute voir dire. Michelle also discusses the challenges of maintaining focus group confidentiality when faced with aggressive tactics from opposing counsel. Gain valuable knowledge on navigating complex litigation and learn how meticulous preparation can make a significant difference in your courtroom success.
In this episode, you will hear:
Lessons learned from Michelle Gessner’s landmark $22 million verdict against Wells Fargo.
Leveraging focus groups to build confidence in trial strategies and understand juror perceptions.
Utilizing focus groups to refine opening statements and determine the most impactful evidence presentation.
Protecting focus group footage from opposing counsel’s access attempts and maintaining its confidentiality.
Follow and Review:
We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.
Don’t want to miss an episode of the podcast? Join the Trial Lawyer Prep Newsletter and receive an email each month that gives you case prep tips, additional resources, and podcast episodes. Please visit: www.larricklawfirm.com/connect
Episode Credits
If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.
This episode join Elizabeth Larrick as she explores the decision-making process of whether to settle a case or proceed to a jury trial. This episode provides trial lawyers with actionable insights into evaluating jury trials by examining recent verdicts and settlements and leveraging the experience of attorneys familiar with key players in the case. Elizabeth shares how focus groups composed of non-lawyers can offer valuable perspectives, helping to understand jurors’ mindsets.
Look into trial preparation and risk assessment, focusing on the importance of evaluating evidence from a juror’s viewpoint. Elizabeth discusses the strategic use of focus groups in refining opening statements and provides a comprehensive view of weighing the risks and rewards of settling versus going to trial.
In this episode, you will hear:
Decision-making between settling a case and going to a jury trial
Importance of researching recent verdicts, settlements, and consulting experienced attorneys.
Utilizing focus groups to understand jurors’ perspectives and attitudes.
Trial preparation, risk assessment, and evaluating evidence from a juror’s viewpoint.
Assessing trial costs, time commitments, and potential outcomes to guide clients effectively.
Follow and Review:
We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.
Supporting Resources:
Want to learn to set-up our own virtual focus groups? Check out my on-demand course here.
This course will only be offered until December 2, 2024.
If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.
Join Elizabeth Larrick as she explores the transformative power of virtual focus groups for trial lawyers. In this episode, Elizabeth discusses her course, “DIY Virtual Focus Groups for Beginners,” designed to equip trial lawyers with the skills to run their own focus groups. Elizabeth shares her experience of how these methods have enhanced her practice by providing crucial jury insights and improving case decisions. The course offers practical tools, including recorded Zoom sessions, a detailed workbook, and a supportive community, addressing common challenges like recruitment, presentation, and moderation.
Elizabeth emphasizes the importance of integrating feedback into legal case preparations, aiming for clarity and simplicity in jury communication. Discover how running your own focus groups can refine your presentation strategies, connect more effectively with juries and clients, and enhance your overall courtroom success.
In this episode, you will hear:
Introduction to DIY Virtual Focus Groups for trial lawyers
Strategies for recruitment, presentation, and moderation in focus groups
Importance of integrating feedback for effective jury communication
Benefits of running personal focus groups for case preparation
Follow and Review:
We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.
If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.
Episode Transcript
Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. I’m your host, Elizabeth Larrick, and I’m glad you’re here today. This episode is going to be a bit different from my normal style. I am going to be sharing information about my on demand course, DIY virtual focus groups for beginners. I’ve talked quite a bit about virtual focus groups on this podcast.
That’s not normal. Even if you’re just now joining me, you may have probably heard some other episodes That were in the feed or that you saw before episode 19, episode 20, episode 80, and a great interview with Clint Schumacher on DIY Focus Groups. All those links will actually be in the show notes if you want to go back and take a look at those.
What I found though is that it was a little bit of a piecemeal information and I get a lot of questions in my email inbox about running virtual focus groups and several pitfalls that people may run into. And so I decided that I could create a course to help folks that are out there either getting started, they’re interested in it, or maybe they’re running them at their own office right now and they’re just getting stuck.
But before I did that, I went out and I looked at what resources right now are available for lawyers, specifically, that gives them a full picture on creating virtual focus groups, not just the recruiting piece, but also the presentation piece and the moderating, which can be really challenging for us because sometimes it turns into cross exam.
And knowing that the importance of running your own virtual focus groups, having that information To make decisions in your case is really key. That’s how I was able to run my law firm. I learned how to do them and put that into practice very quickly to help me make decisions because I didn’t have a lot of resources.
So I wanted to make sure that I could maximize my cases that I had with the basically the resources I had to put into them. And I just really didn’t want to pick the wrong case to go to trial on and possibly lose or make the wrong decision about investing in a case that really wasn’t going to get very far with the jury.
And I believe every lawyer should have access to jury research, no matter where you are, because it really helps overall with running your law firm, making good decisions and having a lot of confidence and assurance in what you’re doing when sometimes it feels like you’re just operating in a vacuum.
There are not very many other resources that we can Really used to get feedback about what other people jurors actually people were making decisions about the cases think right. We can talk to their lawyers. That’s nice. That experience is good. But if you ever been a trial, you know, it’s never going to go exactly as somebody else’s trial has gone.
And so you just want to make sure that you’re testing that. So. I looked at my process and again, I looked back at what people were asking me. I ran several webinars back as well in March and February to help kind of give some information to see where things were needing, where people were lacking. And I even asked again, did other polls to make, ask lawyers.
And what I found was, Or what I’ve created was a live three sessions, zoom sessions where everybody could come in and ask questions and go through the material together. There’s so much material that I created a workbook to go along with everything. And of course you record everything. Which is now what this episode is about the on demand version of that course.
It’s still all the great information about the very actionable steps that you can take along with options. I know that my way is not the highway. There are lots of ways that folks run focus groups. And so I tried to provide those options as well for you along with, you know, really an overview with timelines that you can look at and thinking through the ability.
to delegate to staff members. And so I really encourage lawyers and their staff to join our meetings that we had back in May. Again, that’s exactly what this episode is about. That on demand course that is now available until December 1st. and access will be available all the way through the end of 2024.
And what I’ve also done is because it’s so vital for us to be able to ask questions and get information is I’ve also scheduled an Ask Me Anything on December 2nd so that we can get together and you can pick my brain and I can ask you questions as well about how things are going. And also the platform that is hosting the course allows for a lot of community interaction, a lot of posting.
And that I feel like is always really helpful when you’re doing something new and you have questions and lawyers are really good about questions. You immediately can go there, post a question and get an answer. Okay. So that’s really, I think a helpful part of it as well. And what can you really gain from taking this course?
Well, number one, DIY do it yourself, virtual focus groups, right? Get in yourself, literally those step by step actions to get over that starting place where you’re thinking, how do I get started? And naturally that’s going to save costs and that’s going to make it really convenient for you and. Your office to get answers on questions.
But really, what is gained is confidence and certainty in the evidence that you have and assurance that you have been able to flip those negative facts into either positive positive or even just neutralize them. Really be able to issue spot things that you can’t see as a lawyer, right? We’ve always got some blind spots, especially when we are really invested in a case.
It’s hard to see the other point of view and that’s where focus groups are so awesome at seeing things that we can’t. themes, being able to really look at those facts and targeting concerned areas with these one hour, two hour, even three hour virtual focus groups and getting the clarity that you want, right, to make decisions about cases.
And here recently, right, I had a lawyer who perfectly summarized it. He said, I’m so relieved because. You give this presentation and hearing their feedback that we don’t have to go into a trial and really educate people about something so boring as our case. And it’s like, yes, it is so much simpler than what we make it to be, right?
We tend to complicate things because we have so much information and facts. And really that’s where a focus group, even a short focus group can help you see the simplicity of the case without any complication. And of folks that have taken this course, right? I mean, you know, one of the reviews that I’ve gotten is that, you know, it’s the course has information about gathering people and have forms for different types of focus groups that are available and even interpreting the information, which is kind of critical, right?
We want to make sure that we interpret things correctly. So. All of that is packaged right into three on demand videos and three workbooks that go with that. And the workbooks just kind of accentuate, meaning they’re going to give you more information than what is in the video, but you can go in there and play the videos that you need.
Again, having you and staff be able to have access to those so everybody’s on the same page. And then again, that December 2nd Ask Me Anything, so everybody can come in and get their questions answered. It was definitely one of the highlights of the live version that we had in May, because there is just so much information in there, and sometimes, you know, it’s hard to necessarily connect to it.
everything. Plus, there’s always generally a nuanced question that folks have about maybe their particular practice area or how do you focus group this topic or this problem, right? So that’s always a great question to ask as well. So if you’re interested in learning more about the on demand course, head over to ElizabethLarrick.
com slash on demand course Focus groups, long link. I understand it’ll be in the show notes. So if you’re driving or walking, just know, check those show notes later to find that link. And plus, if you are just not sure if making, doing your own virtual system for jury research is what you’d like to do, then go back to those episodes I mentioned before, 19, 20, 80.
Again, the links will be in the show notes to see, you know, is this something that I want to do? And, um, You know, I encourage folks that it is much simpler than you think to get it started. And it’s, of course, it feels simple to me because I’ve been doing it for years, but I want every lawyer who is practicing in this space, plan of personal injury, employment law, business litigation, to have a tool to help them make decisions to, and also educate their client.
You know, that’s one of those things that sometimes we have clients that are really fixated on Certain facts and certain pieces of their damages, which maybe just don’t hit the jury the same way, right? And it’s hard for them to understand that until they actually see it. And that’s just one of the benefits that you have is.
You can run one of these focus groups right when you need it with the perfect amount of time that you need with an efficient cost and get that answer and then be able to move forward in the case. So many times what I see people do is really hesitate. when it comes to getting information to move a case forward.
And the hesitation could be there’s other cases going on or well that mediation got moved so I’ll just, I’ll just wait to do that later. That’s not a pressing thing that I need information on. I’ll just move it down. Right? You reprioritizing things based on trial dates and expert depositions, and mediations.
Here’s where that becomes a huge problem. That’s really underestimating the amount of amazing information and perspective you will get from a virtual focus group. And you will want to marinate on that information because initial blush may be You want to, you know, run to the bathroom, Ralph, because it’s all terrible information.
But once you really need to digest it to be able to see, Oh, okay, wait a second. Let me get a little bit deeper here on what they’re saying and really try to integrate this into the case earlier than waiting. LLC. Many a times what happens is at first blush, it sounds like they really they’re putting your case in the garbage pan, right?
Like they don’t like it. It sounds like they’re creating more problems for you than not. But most of the time, if you sit with it, go back over it. And this is where that interpretation comes from. You realize I can answer all of these questions, but wow, I need to make that really clear. up front and how do I do that now with, with what I have left, right?
Like maybe it’s the mediation presentation. Maybe it’s these expert depositions that I need to get those questions in up front and very clear so that it’s the jury has those answers. They’re not sitting there wondering about these things. And again, the longer we can marinate on this feedback, the more we can integrate it into our cases and make them better.
Even if at the end of the day, it’s going to be a settlement. That’s okay. Because most of the decision makers on our cases fit more into the Drupal than they do, than they do on our side of things, right? They’ve got very few of things, but having a little bit of clarity and simplicity fits everybody because our brains love that that is persuasive.
And that’s a huge piece of what you can get from running your own purchase groups. Okay. Well, that’s it. I hope that this episode, although different than the normal ones, was helpful and maybe if you’re not ready yet, that’s okay. This is still a good place to maybe peruse the page. Look at the information and see like, okay, listen to the other episodes.
Maybe this is, maybe this isn’t, but just know that that is available for you until December 1st. All right. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
In this episode, Elizabeth explores innovative and cost-effective strategies for trial preparation that go beyond traditional mock juries. Designed with solo practitioners and small law firms in mind, this episode examines techniques like focus groups that can provide valuable insights without the high costs. Learn how attorneys like Ryan Squires and Peter Levine successfully used virtual focus groups to refine their trial strategies, leading to significant verdicts and settlements. Gain actionable tips to enhance your courtroom skills and connect more effectively with juries.
In this episode, you will hear:
Exploring cost-effective alternatives to mock juries for trial preparation
Benefits and insights of using focus groups, both in-person and virtual
Overcoming traditional trial prep challenges for solo practitioners and small firms
Practical tips for conducting short, targeted focus groups
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Episode Transcript
Hello and welcome back to the podcast. I’m your host, Elizabeth Larrick, and I’m glad you’re here and joining me today.
This episode, we are going to talk about a common misconception That I hear when I talk with lawyers and we’re thinking about trial prep and what to do and where to go to learn about jurors attitudes, case themes, you know, who are the good jurors demographically, who are the not good jurors demographically.
And what I always get back is that it’s a mock jury. But this is really kind of the only way that you’re going to be able to learn what you need to learn. To do your trial prep correctly and listen that is not the only way and I want to put together this episode because I know if That’s very much a traditional thought, right?
We’ve learned it from somebody else. It’s been passed down, right? And mock juries are really cool. Don’t get me wrong. I’ve done them. They’re great. But if that’s the only way we think about trial prep, that really starts to exclude a lot of people because they’re so expensive and time consuming. And I can tell you like right here as a solo running my own law firm, thinking of doing a mock jury on my own, like there’s no way I couldn’t afford to do that on any of my cases.
And lo and behold, right, working with other folks and starting to do focus groups on my own, you know, just started to do it. This is what I had available to me. So that’s what I did. Now, when I doing my consulting work and talking with lawyers now for several years, I still keep hearing kind of this, not that it’s a roadblock, but that it is the only way.
Right. Oh, we’re going to do a trial. Oh, we’re doing a mock jury. And so that’s really what this episode is about is, hey, we’ve got alternatives here and why would we need alternatives? Well, again, like I said, number one, thinking about mock jury as the only way to do your trial prep really knocks a lot of people out just based on time consumption.
And money, right? The resource. And that’s because, I mean, traditionally a mock jury is where you’re going to run the full case. So that’s one, a lot of time consumption in putting tech together. So a lot of people, they’re going to have. you know, openings, they’re going to have video evidence, sometimes even live people come and play or read the depositions and you’re gonna have closings, you know, jury instructions.
So it really is the full case and then you watch the deliberations. And so there’s a big resource in, you know, location, videographer, your staff, right. And just helping put these things together. Plus being there, not to mention your, your taxing in the sense time tax in that it’s, you know, You’ve got to put together all these things, all the openings, think about it, get, get extra lawyers to come play all these things.
And so ultimately, it is very clunky when it comes to putting it together and it’s like a whole project management. And it’s really hard to get some qualitative information on specific issues that may be concerning you. Because what you end up getting with a mock jury is you watch deliberations and you get that kind of verdict, right?
And there may be like a debrief and sometimes there is where basically after they finish deliberating, which you’re watching and then you have somebody go in and start, hey, let me ask some questions and just try to get information out of them. They really can’t give you a lot of clear information because they’ve been there all day.
They’ve consumed so much new information. They really probably can’t give you specifics. more than they’ve already talked about in deliberation. So you, you kind of lose out on some of those real sticking points that maybe you wanted to know about or pieces of evidence or, or witnesses, right? So you’re really getting very much a high level, what I call yes, no, right.
You’re getting that verdict where, how they came up with that. Yes, you watch deliberations, but I’m sure if you’ve done one of these, you’re You have the same concern I have, which is like one person is going to nominate right or which what I’ve also seen is where instead of actually like. thinking through and putting together something thoughtful.
They just vote and they just divide and do math and they just move on, right? They’re done. So it’s very hard sometimes to figure out what people are really thinking about the issues because they just kind of do an aggregation of their thoughts instead of actually like kind of debating it like you would think the deliberations go.
So. The other thing is too, once you finish these things, usually you’re spent, right? You’re, you’re exhausted. You’ve got to really move on to doing trial things, motions and liminees and answer all those emails and the judge and you really only have time to do one of these. So you don’t even have comparison information after you get this.
Generally you get, you know, kind of a really large report. You’re not gonna be wrong, like there are definitely, you know, votes along the way and other things to kind of look and test along the way, but again, without having a little bit of a, like a stop in discussion, people just lose it, right? They can’t hold all that information in their brain, then regurgitate it later on in deliberations or rather in the discussion debrief.
So, you know, mock jury, it’s great, but it can be really clunky and, and very traditional. So let’s talk about two alternatives. And number one is the short in person focus group. And when I say short, we’re talking two hours, three hours, maybe four hours max. And why I say that is because thinking through four hours, you’re going to have a couple of breaks, but you’re going to try to get people in and out of there without having to do a meal.
And again, that’s just trying to think through expenses. We’re going to have to get a location. We’re going to have to get a videographer. We’re still going to have this a little bit of an expense to get a neutral location and a place with enough bathrooms. All those things, you know, to make sure participants want to show up and they’re not coming to your office and already having a biased thought about, Hmm, I’m in a lawyer’s office.
I wonder if this is their case, right? Of course, they’re going to assume it’s your case. So the other reason why thinking through these short, like, two hour, three hour in person is in person is still going to allow you the opportunity to practice your presentation style, getting on your feet, practicing that tone, that cadence, It’s the movement, right?
How it works with your PowerPoint. A lot of people really love that piece of a mock jury. It gets them. They put the suit on, you get on your feet and you’re looking people in the eye and you’re delivering the information. Super important, right? That really helps you with practice. That’s why I say one alternative is these short in person focus groups.
And with the shorter version, though, you can really Specifically do pieces of the trial, right? So you can really practice jury selection and you can practice an opening statement. Maybe you skip the jury selection and just do an opening statement and some witness videos. But you’re allowing them to really absorb one piece, get the feedback on that piece, and really jump in and understand what’s behind, right, their reactions or their attitudes and following up to get that information right there, what’s on the top of their brain.
And then moving to the next piece, right? So think about a two hour, you want to do what deer for an hour and you, then you want to run an opening statement. Great. Like you’re going to be able to do that in a way where you’re going to be able to then go back. Well, and you’re getting on your feet, you’re practicing, you’re listening, you’re doing all the good things that what do your requires of us.
And then you’re going to do your opening statement and you’re going to have somebody else get up and do that discussion piece, but you’re going to get the feedback. That you need to hear on those specific issues without crowding more information into their brains. On top of that, and again, thinking if you added an hour, do three hours, right?
So adding in a defense opening here. So there’s a lot of flexibility when we look at just focusing on specific pieces of trial to get you ready and to get that immediate feedback. What also allows you to do is to repeat it, right? Maybe you want to redo your opening or you want to change some things based on what you heard and test it again.
Well, you have the ability, cause these again are shorter. They’re going to be a little more cost effective, but they’re still going to give you that in person presentation style that you want to practice. And then you’re again, going to have this extra data to be able to build more of a data set versus just doing one mock jury.
And again, like I said, it’s much less burdensome on the planning, the putting it together, the time and the money resources. Plus, like I said, you’re getting more qualitative information about specifics that you may have concerns about versus overcrowding them with lots of information and just getting that high level, yes or no, what percentage of responsibility.
Now, you’re still going to get answers to those questions. Like even if you didn’t want them to give it to you, that’s generally what they’re going to do anyhow. So you’re going to get that information, But you’re going to get what’s behind it in a much different format versus watching them deliberate, right?
You’re going to have that moderator asking questions, following up, really digging into the responses that you’re getting. Now, the other alternative, which if you’ve been listening to this podcast, you knew it was already coming, which is short virtual focus groups, because I think that these are so helpful in allowing.
Nearly every lawyer going to trial access to jury research because we are conserving even more money and time by doing these things virtually, there’s no travel, no location fees, no videographers, Right. And everybody just tunes in on their computer. You run everything, share the screen. And again, we’re talking about the same kind of targeted presentations, jury selection, opening statements, Witness videos, it’s the same materials, the materials aren’t really going to change, you’re going to dial them back, right?
If you’re just going to do a one hour focus group, you’ve got to pick your pony. Which one are you going to do? Are you going to practice? And are you going to really then focus in on the target issue or the big worry that you have? Maybe it’s liability, so it’s going to be an opening statement based on liability.
Maybe it’s damages. But you’re really still doing trial prep because you’re taking all the information in, you’re organizing it, and you’re going to put some advocacy in it. You’re going to put it in a sequence. You’re going to try to be persuasive with the information, just like you would in a mock jury, right?
So we’re not losing out on that trial prep aspect, just by having it being one or two hours and on virtual. And again, We’re going to do the same kind of moderating. We’re going to get that instant feedback, that simple feedback, that discussion to help you learn more about your opening statement, your concern areas.
And then you can easily repeat it, make those changes, come back, do a longer one. You’re going to get a comparison of data based on, you know, being able to run these virtuals more often than doing in person. And Again, because of the flexibility of these short focus groups, you can start doing them, right, much earlier than 30 days before trial.
And you would want to do that because then you’re going to get more information and be able to integrate things and be, be much more ready for trial if it does happen. If you start a little further out and that’s kind of where these.
And again, even the better part here is you can do these things on your own. I will put a link to the show notes for our focus group, DIY episodes. So that you can do these without needing a consultant, right? Sometimes they make our lives easier, but sometimes we can’t afford them. That’s totally fine.
Listen, I didn’t ever hire a consultant when I did my own focus groups. I took the CLEs or took the classes. I went to the seminars to learn how to do these things so that I could do them on my own and I know that you are the same way. I know that you are the same way. That’s why you’re here, right? You want to learn the skills and do it on your own and that’s totally respectable.
We all have businesses that we need to run. We got to be very cost conscious in what we’re doing for our clients. And again, if you’re a personal injury, you’ve got a big risk here and you want to make sure that. You’re taking the right risks and that’s where focus groups help you make those decisions.
So two main examples I want to talk about here before we conclude this episode. Number one is attorney Ryan Squires. He did an episode with me, 35. It’ll be linked in the show notes where he talked about. His big verdict that he got, but what he did to prepare at the time it was in 2021 and so we just, all we had were virtual focus groups at the time that the trial was also going to be virtual.
So they did three virtual focus groups and in every focus group, they did opening statements. That’s all they did. And they were months out from trial, but what he explains in my interview is he had so much confidence. and felt so prepared because that opening was steel tight. I mean, they had dialed in their visuals, their PowerPoint based on what people were saying and being able to convey that in such a clear, simple way.
And they had a complicated case. It was a 20 year history between family members with hundreds and hundreds of emails about moving money and fiduciaries and investing. And so it was easy to get complicated and bogged down and overwhelm the jury with too many facts. And I think that’s why they came and they said, we’ve done it.
This is all we want to do. We just want to do opening statements. We want to get this dialed in and surefire. It was very well dialed in, you know, other things happened at trial, but they ended up getting a 40 million verdict in that particular case. The other example that I have is a lawyer that I work with.
In California, his name is Peter Levine, and he likes to build the focus groups. And again, they’re always still for trial prep, though, you know, we’re not, you know, things aren’t going to get started churning doing focus groups very seriously until we’re, you know, four or five months out. And then he’s kind of building, doing these one hour, two hours, three hours, and building on the information as we get it and continuing to test everything until, you know, we’re Again, we’re coming down to the last two or three and doing opening statements to make sure.
Right? We’ve gathered the information. We’ve listened to what the focus groups have said before, but also right, giving it back to make sure and test everything and, you know, having good success doing that as well, that the couple of times that we have worked together the past five years, mostly we’re med mals, but also all kinds of other cases as well that basically really end up turning up where the, they settled in the middle of trial or set it right before trial, but giving them the confidence to know what jurors were thinking.
So they can make that decision about settlement. So here’s the bottom line. You are not stuck with mock juries. Okay. It is not the only way to do trial preparation. And again, that thought that, uh, mock jury. Okay. But it’s so expensive. Like that forces so many lawyers out of just not doing them all together.
Right. Oh, this case isn’t worth it. Right. Now that’s an easy way to say, like, I’m not doing any jury research. I’m just guessing. So. Again, let’s go back. We’ve got two alternatives here. We’ve got our short in person focus groups and we’ve got our virtual focus groups. Because here’s what you need. You’re coming down to the wire.
You’ve had this case, you know all the facts, and it’s coming to the time of trial. We’ve got to make a lot of hard decisions about evidence and order of proof and final settlement offers. And what you really need is digestible feedback in short bursts, efficient with your time and your money that’s effective on the issues that are keeping you up and worrying you the most.
And it’s repeatable. Right? You can go back and repeat it and test it to really gain confidence and assurance that your case, when you give it over to the jury, is going to be the winning case. And that’s what we need, right? We have to give it over. Jurors are the ones that make decisions. So don’t walk in blind, right?
You’re not left out in the cold here if you don’t have money for a mock jury or a large data survey or, you know, one of the other large jury research products that are running around there. So I hope that this episode was helpful. I hope that you, you know, look at some alternatives and again, cool thing about virtual and even in person, you can set those up as well on your own.
The shorter versions make it easier and digestible for you and your staff to be able to put them together. So. I hope that you enjoyed this episode. If you did, I’m going to ask you to join the trial lawyer prep newsletter using the website that is listed in the show notes, www. laricklawfirm. com slash connect.
I send out an email just once a month, trial tips, strategies, extra resources. It’s really more of an in depth place where I put my thoughts on the same topics that we discuss here in the podcast. Okay, until next time, thank you so much. Oops, I meant to mention before we close out this episode right now in this month, I am doing a special offer to my email list.
For the on demand DIY virtual focus groups for beginners. However, I’m only giving it to the email list. So be sure and go to that website to fill out the form and get yourself on the email list for the emails that are going out this month. And you’ll get the added bonus for being on the email list. www.larricklawfirm. com/connect.
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