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Episode Transcript:
Hello, Elizabeth here. I wanted to jump in before this episode and do a little mini introduction. So this is going to be a replay of a guest episode with Joseph Rosenfeld. Now Joseph joined the podcast back in episode 90 to talk about image consulting and how trial lawyers can embody their image in a way that will reflect credibility. Now I’ve asked Joseph to come back for a webinar
coming up on May 29th and the link to register for that webinar will be in the show notes. And what we want to talk about in this webinar is how are you trial lawyer showing up to tell your story in the courtroom? And so Joseph and I will talk about how to align those things from my perspective as a trial consultant and his perspective as an image consultant.
I hope that you’ll join us on May 29th and that link will be in the show notes. But for now, enjoy this episode with Joseph Rosenfeld, which is one of the most popular episodes on this podcast.
Welcome to Trial Lawyer Prep. What if you could hang out with trial lawyers and jury consultants, ask them about connecting with clients and juries more effectively, then take strategies, tactics, and insights to increase your success? Each week, Elizabeth Larrick takes an in-depth look at how to regain touch with the everyday world, understand the emotional burden of your clients and juries, and use focus groups in this process.
Elizabeth is an experienced trial lawyer, consultant, and founder of Leric Law Firm in Austin, Texas. Her goal is to help you connect with juries and clients in order to improve your abilities in the courtroom. Now here’s Elizabeth. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. I’m your host Elizabeth Leric, and today we have a guest with us. I was super excited to have this guest come on. We met on LinkedIn.
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Probably one of my first exchanges on LinkedIn, but I was super intrigued. I watched his content and I said, Joseph, you need to come on. So Joseph Rosenfeld is here to talk to us. He is an image consultant for Litigators. So welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much. It’s really wonderful to be with you, Elizabeth, and to share some cool stuff with your listeners.
when you first reached out, I was intrigued, but I was also, I’m not gonna lie, I was put back because sometimes we get told what to wear and told how to look and it can be so frustrating. And then I listened to you and your video and I was like, this is totally my jam because like you talked about the inside reflecting outside and I was like, this is it.
I’m excited and I know my audience is going to appreciate this. So stick around here folks, but Joseph, tell us how did you get into this?
That’s a whole other podcast episode, but in brief, I was 15 years old and discovered the official preppy handbook. So if you’re carbon dating me, that puts me back to being a teenager in the mid 1980s. I suffered a tremendous amount of bullying. Kids used to tell me how ugly I was and I believed it for all my childhood.
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And rather than try to do something dire and irreversible, the official preppy handbook became my odd salvation. From that, I really had an epiphany, which was I may never be hot or sexy or tall or gorgeous or whatever, but I could have style. And if I could show people what my style was, I wouldn’t only look stylish. I would reveal who I truly am from the inside out.
And it worked. The first thing that I, where I knew it definitely was working and I was onto something was people immediately almost stopped telling me how ugly they thought I was. They were wrong, but they just, kids can be cruel. It’s amazing that you could turn off their cruelty. And the rest from that point of being 15 and all these years later is history. I’ve just been
Working on my hypothesis ever since and every single client who I work with is another experiment and is another teacher of mine. In many ways, I’m the student and my clients are constantly teaching me who they are. And internally, I’m constantly learning more about myself and who I am to become. And those are the things that come together and make me a sought after expert in my field.
It sounds like then we could say your passion started early.
very.
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So when did you really make the turn of, a second, like I can help people with this or was this something people said they just looked at you you were like, I need your help. You’ve got your style down. Help me with mine.
Back in the day, I quit college and got a job working at Neiman Marcus in Chicago. I was the youngest sales associate that they had put out on the selling floor in 1989. And I was not even quite 20 years old at that time. The store was open for seven years. The types of folks who came into my department, I was stationed in the men’s sportswear department at the time. So I worked with men.
chiefly at that point. It was remarkable who they were because Chicago is a big law town and I had lots of lawyers and scions of wealthy families and traders from the mercantile exchange, board of options, board of trade, you name it, all kinds of people with money coming in and out and so on and coming into the store. I
developed a clientele that was very loyal very early on. And it shocked me because I was green. I’m wearing an olive jacket today. I guess I’ve stayed green all my life. There was so much that I didn’t know, but I had taste in the beginning. And then that was innate. But then the knowledge that really took me into making a difference with people came shortly thereafter. And it really came by.
learning about people and who they told me that they were and who they wanted to be and how they wanted to position themselves, which is a personal branding statement there, positioning themselves. But it was very much also about who they wanted to be for themselves in their life. What kind of person of integrity did they want to be? And I worked with lots of lawyers all through that.
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dozen years of my early career. And that continued on once I hung a shingle and said, okay, I’m an image consultant and I’m working independently. So all told, I’ve been working in this way for over 30 years now. And it’s been an incredible journey and a ride because people have opened up so much to share a lot about who they are and how they want to show up in all different settings and contexts.
And the lawyers that I’ve worked with have been some of my greatest teachers, honestly, because they could be in so many different places, all kinds of different scenarios. Is it a courtroom trial? Is it an arbitration meeting? Is it a settlement meeting? Is it a client meeting? Is there something going on with colleagues? What’s happening at networking and bar association activities?
so many different things. And then just being out socially and social networking and just having private time with loved ones and dear friends. And how does all of that kind of showing up in the world impact a person’s image and brand and style? And it just goes on and on. that’s a
a long explanation, but it just goes to show how deep things can be in terms of the interactions that we have.
Absolutely. And I’m sure 30 years is a long time, but even just looking at that 30 years, there’s been so many leaps and changes with professions and with style and with social media, just people are seen. Whereas before it was like you said, especially for litigators, it’s we’re showing up to the courthouse and now it’s, have a lot of.
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lawyer, litigator friends who like anytime they go to the courthouse, they’re snapping that selfie or they’re walking out of there. So there’s so many more opportunities to quote unquote be seen now than before.
Very true. think that’s the thing about the digital age. And it’s a warning as much as it can be a joy. It’s also a warning. How are you showing up? If there are all these other opportunities to put yourself out there, even some in some jurisdictions court appearances are still also taking place on zooms. Not everything is back to being in person. So the context of how you show up and how often
you may put yourself out there to promote what you’re doing or to showcase not really as a promotional thing, but just to say, hey, I’m doing this today and it feels really good to be out doing this, which I think is a slightly different context than something overtly self-promotional. How you put yourself out there for all those different experiences matters and it matters more than ever. You think it’s ephemeral. if I just put this little ha selfie,
moment on Instagram, for example, it will go away. But people have a way of remembering these images. They’re maybe more indelible than they are throw away. It’s important to contemplate what kind of lasting impression an impression of the moment may give a person. So just to tell you one thing that I think is so important about this, in my world, people are always talking about the first impression.
What about the hundredth impression nowadays? The first impression is so far in the way back machine, but we’re able to make so many impressions today that we wouldn’t have made at any other time before more recent times. So the hundredth impression, the 500th impression, I’m not even exaggerating, the 1000th impression matters and perhaps
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More so than ever, the most recent impression matters more than anything previous.
Unless it’s something super sticky, right? And it could be something that you don’t want to be stuck in someone’s.
For sure. Because something that happened a couple hundred impressions ago really left some indelible impression that is unshakable. maybe it’s something that your good friends will razz you about. my gosh, when you were showing up like this and your makeup ran or something like that. just, you have to laugh about it. But then you also want to be able to.
perhaps not have that happen because then that will be the only thing you’re known or remembered for instead of your great skills, your heart, how hard you really work for people, what your work really means to you, what your clients really mean to you, just how far will you actually go for your clients? Those are very deeply personal things and they should be reflected on the outside of you. Not only those wackadooey
silly moments that people can’t let you live down.
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Sure. Tell me, you mentioned working with lawyers and have done that for a long time, being a lawyer. Is there anything so special about us that you just like working with?
I think that the work that you do is consequential and it’s personal. I also think for the litigators that I work with, there’s a little bit of a theatrical element to what it’s like to go to court and to think about how you want to show up to tell stories. I think every lawyer tells stories. I don’t mean fibs.
It’s real storytelling. Even if you’re a work a day lawyer working in an office and a law practice or in a corporate setting, the stories that you have to tell to get buy in. The arc of the story has to do so much with the consequence of taking an action. Storytelling is very important and how you show up to tell that story.
matters a lot. It matters similarly to all the thought and preparation and research that goes into preparing for the actual story. For litigators, when you go to court and you have a story to tell, you have to tell it to the judge, you have to tell it to the jury, and everyone in the courtroom is listening.
who’s the better storyteller? The facts will play out, but if the facts can be malleable to some degree, and it’s about believability beyond a reasonable doubt, who’s got the better story? Who’s the better relator? So I love being able to do that kind of work with my clients. I find it joyful. And most people that I’ve worked with in the law find
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that storytelling and those theatrics is actually enjoyable for them too. So I love being with people who find the joy in what they’re doing and also take it drop dead seriously. It’s consequential. And I know that the work I do is consequential. So the energies really meet up nicely between the folks I work with and my own energy.
And of course, think trial lawyers sometimes take themselves too seriously, but it’s so true because most trial lawyers, litigators are very passionate about being in the courtroom and passionate about their clients. And so when you had that video about matching, right. Inside the outside and having that presentation come all together, I was like, that’s exactly what I think so many lawyers struggle with because
There’s so much old advice out there about how we should be showing up in the courtroom, very conservative wear, if you will. And then the changes in the struggles that we have with, I will say just from my point of view, like it is sometimes a super struggle to go and be like, okay, I want to get a new suit or a new dress and I show up and it’s all these things that are quote unquote in style or fashionable. can’t wear these things. Like, so tell me a little bit about as far as helping
Let’s take it like for sure, like the old advice, like what is some of the things that you hear? I’ll share for me some of the old advice that I’m like, can we please get away from this old advice? So what have you heard lawyers come to you and say, well, I have to do this.
Ladies always tell me lots of the same things that gentlemen are somehow off the hook from, but here are some. Jewelry, curls, quiet jewelry. When you move, they can’t make noise. Closed toed shoes, heels, specific types of hemlines of which there are so many, I won’t waste time even.
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It baffles the mind.
Full body coverage. are so many things. Cosmetics. How heavy or how bare is a red lip salacious? These kinds of things really come up all the time and they still come up and I have to welcome the questions because when people have to ask these questions, I know that people are definitely struggling with what is acceptable today. Now,
I should say for men, the question now comes in around what about jewelry? Can a man wear an earring? Can a man wear two earrings? What about tattoos being visible? Do I have to wear a necktie? Can I have facial hair? It’s 2023, these types of questions still arise. And I think in large part, a lot of the answer has to do with
the type of law you practice, the type of clients you have, the type of judge who hears your case, and what the judge’s values are. Because it’s that person’s courtroom, if you will. And that creates a culture. That culture may or may not have anything to do with your firm’s culture or your corporation’s culture.
but you’re stepping into that environment and that is that culture. So there’s always research to be done. I, as a non-lawyer, often find myself asking my lawyer clients, what kind of research have you done? What do you know firsthand about that kind of culture? Do I need to go and do some research and then I will do some stuff. It’s really interesting to try to figure those
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things out, you might consider, since we’re talking about a lot of storytelling, that’s the backstory and you need that. That’s the foundational basis for how to show up and do things right. And then I think in terms of current mores and values and how people can show up, everything to me is about in the end dressing appropriately and that casts a broader net than ever.
Years ago, Mary Barra, who’s the CEO of General Motors, basically threw out an entire multi-page dress code and said, the answer is dress appropriately, which then left every employee up to deciding what is that? And then for employees and their managers to have to hash out, what is appropriate dress?
And within different subcultures, and we’ll stick to the law here since that’s what we’re talking about, different subcultures even within law have different kinds of acceptability levels. And so there are times when still more conservative dress is required. I still think a tie is required for men in court basically anywhere. Why would it be wise to
a shoe wearing a tie only to have a judge toss you out and say, this is continued, go home and put a tie on or go to the restroom and pull that tie out of your briefcase and put it on. To use a pun, it’s not a good luck to have to stop a proceeding because someone isn’t attired correctly. And that’s just for the lawyers, of course. Then you have witnesses.
your clients if they have to take the stand in the case of personal injury cases and things like that, or you may have for employment lawyers, there could be an employee that needs to take the stand. How do they need to show up? It’s all part of the story and how they can really represent themselves in a strong way that is good for the case and helps to really get their truth out. So there’s so many rungs to this now.
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And I think when it comes to trends, Elizabeth, there isn’t necessarily one right answer. That’s probably the crux of the whole thing is that as I started off with the story of pearls, quiet jewelry, closed toed heels, these things are like everyone is to do the same thing. Everything is about complete conformity. There’s no room for anything.
personal about who you are as an individual, as a human, something that also differentiates you from any other lawyer within earshot of that courtroom at least. I think that’s been what was wrong with all of those old rules. And by the way, there are still a lot of people in my field who think that those rules rule. And I think they suck because they don’t allow for a person to really
stand in their power. Imagine feeling like this is my job. I am a litigator and I’m a rock star litigator and I have to dress this exact way that makes me conform to some old world standard of being. And I actually feel held back. If you put clothes on and it starts to cost you things like your voice.
your ability to move around and use your body and your body language to help communicate points that you feel absolutely sure of, true to the letter of the law about, passionate about, and you feel like you have to hold back because you’re in some suit or dress that may as well have been a straight jacket. It’s a horrible feeling, right?
Yeah.
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So that’s why I think it’s so important to put all these pieces together and then come up with a look that is a signature for you that allows you to really be exactly who you are supposed to be. It should be emancipating and freeing and unleash your inner beast of a lawyer, if you will, in the good way and really represent your case and your client.
And I think those rules are helpful because when you’re coming out of law school, okay, those are the rules. that makes it easy to think, okay, then I know exactly what I’m going to get access to the variety of now at your fingertips, just going on Amazon. There’s so many choices now that we have, it’s almost, it is overwhelming. And so going back to those rules is okay.
Okay. This is comfortable. Okay. I tried to step out, but no, I’m just going to go back to the rules. Cause that’s one of things I think is always helpful when I walk into a store and I have an idea of this is what I like and I’ll get someone to help me because one, I hope that they know like what’s in the store. Otherwise I’ll be there way too long, but looking for something. But is that kind of, cause there’s so many choices and it’s like, there’s no way we would know all of that. job is to know what the laws and the cases am I hitting what you can help with or tell us about that.
Yes, I think what’s different about what I do versus what you can experience in a store is yes, people in stores know the merchandise and perhaps because they know the current merchandise, they know the trends and that’s helpful when you’re shopping. But what’s more helpful and what store associates don’t really take the time to do and I just have to say it’s what
They’re not really paid to do. I used to be one, so I know, but I was a different kind of a person and that’s why I got into my business. I’m in the business of really getting to know people so that I can match with great precision what someone should wear. There’s a reason why I wore an olive jacket to sit on Zoom with you. I knew that
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we were recording this, for example. So this gives you a little background context into why we would make decisions. Now my eyes, which only you can see right now, and then whomever watches this when you put it up online, will also be able to see, perhaps, my eyes are hazel and my eyeglasses and my jacket are an olive tone that play off my hazel eyes.
People tell me that I have this incredible gift of being able to see into a person that I can really take a good look at somebody and know them, that I’m very interested in studying them. The color psychology behind Hazel has a lot to do with healing. Like Sage, you burn Sage when you are looking to heal a space, heal yourself, and there’s color psychology involved in everything.
So I love to wear this kind of a color as a signature because it helps to tell that story. Now, I told the quiet part out loud just now. I want people to be able to see you and feel you, really feel you and see you for exactly what you stand for. It’s like I’m making a value statement, only now I cheated.
because I told you what it is. But if I didn’t say something, you would probably be able to absorb from looking at me and hearing me, how I’m using my body language, even my hands on a Zoom, my vocal intonation, the way that I use words, the sound of my voice matches everything. So I want to do that for…
anybody that I’m working with. That’s super important and it’s detailed and subtle and sometimes painstaking. For me, it comes more easily though, because it’s my gift, but try to explain this to anybody. And they’ll be like, I’m just going to go like chop my closet or I’ll just go on Amazon and click on the first thing I find and buy it and be done with it or whatever. think that being able to put
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thought and intentionality into what you wear is transformative. And this is what I am really here to do with people. If you’re a lawyer and you’re listening to this, I think what’s important is how do you stand out and be the better lawyer? Not only to be competitive with literally other lawyers that you practice with or are competing for the same
clients or business with, how do you better yourself as a lawyer? If you could compete with yourself and be the better lawyer and you have all the competence and all the skills and the degrees and the JD stuff from all the right law schools and universities. After you have all those things and you probably are on the bell curve with lots of people at your caliber.
Being on the bell curve, by the way, is A-OK. That means you’re alive, you’re on that curve. I just have to say. But then what happens, how do you actually differentiate yourself even in some subtle way that allows people to see that your energy and the way you are as a human, which infuses the way you practice law, how does all of that come into play?
That’s right.
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and make me want to come to you? Why would I, as the client in need of a lawyer, come to you? What are you gonna do for me and how are you gonna do it for me that matters? And what’s amazing is that it’s not just the clothes. I’m not bypassing the personal style and the appearance of things. It’s the entire self image. The self images, the parts of self
from deep within that really make you who you are and who you wanna become. And then the clothing aspect and other parts of your outer image, like your nonverbal communication, in addition to your appearance, all those things come together to paint this very rich picture for everyone who needs to be in your presence. So when I’m thinking about the apparel part of
a person’s image, I’m thinking about all the colors and the styles that are right for a person. How strong or how gentle does a person need to come across? How trustworthy and businesslike does someone need to be? How laid back does someone need to be? How poised and perfectly positioned does someone need to be? Or how much of a maverick or an avant-garde
personality needs to come through. All of these play into different archetypes that I work with and people can be a blend of these different archetypes. No one is a monolith. We’re all multi-dimensional people. So by studying who a person is through their personality and understanding what colors best support that person, every lawyer that I work with ends up really having
their own unique principles around their appearance and their style that is custom for that person. So each lawyer really deserves to honor themselves. And in doing that, they can stand up in a better way to support their clients and the cases they have and all the business matters that are before them.
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And I think something that you hit on too was lawyers, especially personal injury lawyers have a little bit of a tarnished reputation. So credibility is really important for us. I think, like you said, part of that blink reaction that people have sometimes is if things are cohesive, then you have a little more credibility. But if something is off or it’s just a little bit like in that blink reaction, people have a pause or they try to label you.
Like I said, sometimes our old school stuff comes where we just don’t know, or it’s like, oh yeah. If I could have picked a different color instead of just wearing that same black suit or some, some variety of black would have been a little bit better.
Right. Well, if you think about it, black is a color that can create distance between you and the people who are looking at you. It can also be the color of someone who is in service, but that could be like the maitre d at a Michelin starred restaurant or a server, literally, or it could be a perfume spritzer in a department store, which you’re probably trying to avoid at all costs.
So black has its place. Black can be very powerful though when you are practicing law and you have a point to make and you mean to be absolutely direct. The question then becomes what do you augment that black suit or black dress with in order to communicate that you’re not just all that, that there’s more.
Can I share a little story about that?
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yeah, sure, that’d be helpful.
Okay, so I had a, this is a cool story. I had a client who reached out to me one evening before going away on a business trip. And I remember this inside my head thinking this is a really funny story to recall because I was sitting in the hot tub at the time when she called. It was in the evening and I knew to take the call. So here we are, I’m in the hot tub on my cell phone and she’s in her closet saying,
I am taking a trip tomorrow to try to settle a case. What do I wear? And I asked her to tell me some information about the situation without giving away anything that I shouldn’t know, which I’m always careful about. And I have NDAs with lots of my clients anyway. So sometimes they need to tell me more than perhaps I might like to know, but I have to know, or they think I should know. We all cover our tushes that way.
So she told me that she knew that they could litigate this case and win it, but she could also be a hero in that they could settle the case and it would save them a huge amount of time and money. Yes, they would still have a payout, but it would come out better for them in the long run anyway. And then that would free up their resources to move on. Sometimes these decisions are very much about business.
I’m sure I’m not telling you anything you don’t know, but for me as the non-lawyer, this was important context for me. There was even more to it than that. She also inherited this case from a predecessor. And when she learned about it, she felt badly about it, to be honest. She was honest with me to tell me, so I’m honest to share that. And I said, okay.
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I think I know exactly what you need to do. I asked her one question though, before giving her my advice. I said, is there anything that you really want to tell this ex-employee that you’re going to try to negotiate the settlement with? And she said, yeah, I want to say, I’m sorry. Like in a kind of a personal way. And I said, okay, here’s what you’re going to do.
And I knew exactly everything she had in her closet. So it sounds easy peasy because it was, because I knew and I had procured her wardrobe for her. So based on what I knew she had, I said, I want you to pull out this black suit, pantsuit. It’s got peak lapels and underneath of it, I want you to pull out this teal silk blouse. And I want you to wear black heels.
and want you to pull out the specific jewelry. And I told her exactly what it was and she pulled it all together and she said, huh, that looks great. Why did you tell me to pull this out? Here’s the foil. This is the crux of the whole thing. The black suit in wool basically says, I’m here to do some business and I am serious and I’m not
F’ing around.
Yeah.
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but underneath, so there was a sternness to the whole thing. And the lapel as an expression is also important because it conveys authority and confidence. Any garment with a lapel creates a sense of authority, but a peak lapel in particular shows more boldness than a notch lapel like what I’m wearing right now. She had that. Then I told her about wearing this teal blouse. I said,
This color plays off your eyes. This ex-employee is going to look at you saying something sincere and he’s going to see sincerity. The other thing is it’s a silk blouse. There’s a softness there. It’s closest to your skin, by the way. It tells an onlooker that you have a soft ins…
side, even if your suit represents a hard shell exterior. You’re never going to tell this to somebody. But if you can show up looking that way, we are so conditioned in Western society to pick up on these cues. Like it’s a language that we’re not fluent in, but somehow we understand contextually what’s going on. And she said, I would never put it that way. But when you
describe it that way and I know that’s exactly how I’m going to wear it. That’s genius. And then of course she had the jewelry that also complimented her dark brown hair color and her eye color and it just put a really good focal point on her. Guys, if you’re doing the same kind of thing and you’re not really going to do a necklace and earrings like this, it’s all about what you do in your necktie.
there’s so much symbolism that is the same. Whether it’s a solid tie, there are messages that come across in a solid tie. If you’re wearing a patterned tie, there are a bajillion messages that come across in patterns. But if you’re wearing something that’s multi-hued, just like this jewelry is multi-toned that I’m describing that she wore, it can be an ideal compliment to standing in your truth
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standing in your power, standing in your sincerity, standing in your earnestness and standing in your, am here to do business, take me seriously. This is serious. And the teal and the jewelry and everything offset the black suit and the seriousness of the peak lapel, as I was describing. And it created this kind of push pull about
These are my walls, but inside my walls is also another aspect of the real me. I’m not that difficult to deal with. Let’s do it. And you know what? The whole thing flew and they settled. And after she called her husband to say, babe, I’m coming home and it was a good day. She called me to tell me what happened.
And I was really flattered that she reached out to me to tell me what kind of success she had. The reason why the story I think is so powerful is yes, it was about what she wore and what that gave her, but it supported her story. It supported the messages that she wanted to deliver. And if she had to go to trial to do the same thing and not to settle this in an arbitration setting,
We would have had similar conversations about exactly the very same thing, only it would have been a trial of maybe a few days. And we would have had more to strategize on over who are the witnesses? What’s the arc of the story? When you’re not presenting your side and you have to sit back and listen for objections and things like that, what do you wear when you’re going to behave like that?
What do you wear for cross-examining? There are so many things that I think about. We didn’t have to do that in this case because she arbitrated and it went exactly like clockwork the way she wanted. So that was great. I loved that for her.
speaker-0 (41:02.702)
Well, I love the story. Like that makes a lot of sense. Some people might say, Joseph, that’s a whole lot of thought into what I’m going to wear. I don’t have time to put all that thought into what I’m going to wear. Ever heard that whole.
Sometimes I do, but what’s interesting is when my clients are working with me, we make it a lot more simple. clients like this one knew she can pick up the phone and call me and I’ll have an answer for her because that’s just the way I work with people. Imagine though that she was leaving the next day and she called me up that night, completely panicked.
I don’t have the right thing to wear. And that then we have to go through what she does have and try to come up with something that she would have settled on. And I feel like that notion of settling for something less than what it could have been is costly when the consequences of your presence in a setting is high.
So in this case, she didn’t have to settle because she actually had the thing. Because when I build a wardrobe for my clients, I’m often thinking about, you’re going to need different things for different scenarios, different audiences, different purposes. And how can we be as fulsome? Even if you’re a bit of a minimalist in how much of a wardrobe you might want to have. I love the idea of own
less but better and do more with it. That’s my mantra. Secretly I’m a maximalist. I’m a collector.
speaker-0 (42:56.883)
pictures of your closet.
I love the idea that for people who can’t have a big closet like I have that, and if you don’t want to spend your entire salary on clothing, which I don’t recommend anyway, how do you make more with fewer things? I think in her case, she had all the right things. And when you make the right investment in that way, then it negates this
pushback that you suggested that people could have and yeah, people do have it. People do have it, but it dissipates once you realize the power that your wardrobe can give you. If you think about it, not as a lawyer and just as a lay person, you have a social gathering to go to, but you don’t have the right thing to wear. It’s almost, that’s nice. I got invited to go to something, but
I don’t have the right thing. The right thing or the lack of having the right thing is almost like someone outside me gave me this invitation, which is a form of permission. I’m invited. I can cross the red velvet rope and get into this thing. But without the right thing that you don’t treat yourself to or don’t invest in, not everything is about treating in a luxury way. Some things you just really need.
without having the very things that you need, you deny yourself permission to gain entry. As a lawyer, you pass the bar, you have a case, you have a right to be in that courtroom. Do you have a right to win? If you got the right case, yes. But I think that how you show up enhances not only your right to be there, but your right and your ability to win. That’s what I firmly believe in. And so I’m trying to…
speaker-1 (44:52.366)
pass that message along to more folks because it doesn’t have to be as complex for you to do it. You don’t have to hire somebody to get help. You have to be mindful at least. And if you could incorporate a touch more mindfulness at least than what you have gifted yourself with at any time in the past, you’ll set yourself on a better path for success.
through your wardrobe selections and how you show up to all your proceedings and client meetings, you’ll do better. And if you want to do better than that, that’s where help is definitely.
Yes. Well, and I think that we should be thoughtful about how we’re showing up because one the we always, I definitely tell folks who are going to go up on the stand is the moment you walk into that courtroom, you are being watched and you’re being judged and they’re making decisions about you before you even get to open your mouth. And that’s everybody. And sometimes when I walk into a courtroom and I size up the other lawyer and I notice things about what they’re wearing,
I make immediate judgments that they’re not prepared. They don’t know what this case is about. And I know, you know, what I’ve done, but I’ve definitely had that blink reaction and totally judged people. I know that I’ve had judges look at me and make blink reactions about who I am and who I’m showing up to be. And of course it’s based on what I’m wearing, what I look like. So tell us, okay, we’ve got folks listening here, mostly, know, our personally trial lawyers and some employment lawyers as well.
What are a couple of one or two tips or strategies that you would suggest to folks who are listening?
speaker-1 (46:34.614)
When in doubt, take a look at your eye color. As I referenced earlier, it’s something so obvious, but people often ignore whatever your eye color is represents a deep inner knowing of the truth of who you are as a person. If you can repeat that color on your body in a way that provides a focal point back to your face.
people will see your earnestness. I think every lawyer has a baseline of being fairly earnest in their work. Sometimes though, it needs to show. You aren’t ever going to carry a picket sign into a courtroom with the letters on it that say, am earnest. They may think your name is earnest, I don’t know, but seriously, this is a very important thing because
It’s the thing that you want people to know about you without you ever saying the saying it out loud. Cause to say it out loud sounds ridiculous, except that you’re being earnest is far from being ridiculous. And I think as you mentioned a little earlier, Elizabeth talking about in the case of personal injury attorneys, how some have sullied the reputation of the whole and
That may be true, but that does not have to be true of you. And a lot of that comes through your earnestness, quite frankly. Eye color is really huge. I also think that making sure that you’re wearing garments that fit you well is very important. And I have to say this in kind of the new post pandemic world. I don’t care if your weight went up
down, if you stayed the same. I’m a body positive person and I just have to say that because you don’t know me. Find something that fits your body beautifully. It needs to flatter your body. It does not have to be skin tight, no matter what your size is. What you want is to make yourself look tall. If you could wear a monochromatic ensemble,
speaker-1 (48:59.49)
whether it’s a suit or a dress that automatically makes you look more monochromatic. If you are very traditional in terms of your dress style and you’re female and or male and you want to wear a skirt with a jacket, still going monochromatic is helpful in that case. I think being able to stand tall and powerful is important.
And then to understand for yourself, okay, I got my strong and powerful part on how do I show my human side? Because I’m not a monolith. I’m using first person here because I want you to be able to think about this for yourself. Like I am not a monolith. I’m not only about being strong and tough because what you want to be careful of, and I can say this without trying to
insult anybody. I’ve worked with a lot of lawyers, right? So you want to avoid the pretense of arrogance. It’s important to try to find ways where there’s a win out of the situation. There’s any opportunity, even in the middle of a trial where it’s possible to still settle something. And you’re usually looking for some kind of good common ground. If you show like you’re, I’ll
say this with air quotes, a good guy, meaning really just a good person, one of the good guys, if you will, a good person, judge, jury members, opposition counsel, even the people that you’re up against. Oftentimes people are willing to see the good in somebody if you will let it show. So always try to find a way to bring that good part of you in.
And of course, being strong and powerful is also part of good, but that is that outer confidence piece. That’s what your suit is about or your dress is about. As a funny thing that also I think is serious as well, this is for the ladies. If you’re in a dress and it’s opaque and nobody can see anything that you’re wearing underneath,
speaker-1 (51:18.722)
There is a time and a place when you may need to bring a little bit extra energy that no one is going to know that’s there except for you. And I can’t tell you how many female lawyers I’ve worked with where giving them lingerie that makes them feel absolutely powerful underneath helps them bring their power. Now I can’t say that any man has ever asked me to do underwear with them, but I will say that
Everybody has to wear something. that, by the way, I that’s also extremely important. Always wear underwear, for sure. And I have to say, because that’s come up a time or two, believe it or not. It’s also important to think through what it is for you as a man, those of you gentlemen who are listening in, what as a man you would wear that makes you feel powerful.
That’s a tip right there, always wear something.
speaker-1 (52:17.534)
as a whole person that you are still that soft, where’s your core? What are your values? And just spend five minutes. You don’t need more than five minutes to really think about this. You may even know it instantly. A favorite item that you have that might not be something that you’d wear to court, but might be something that could inspire what you could wear.
That way people also get to know a little bit more about the real you. Those are some of my favorite tips and often have to do with color because it’s what people who have the ability to see, which is still most people can see, and they can infer a lot of messaging directly from that because again, we are so deeply socialized into understanding what those messages are.
Yeah. And I think, you know, undergarments for ladies can be challenging. So for sure. And just from personal experience, I don’t want to overshare here with some might, but you can be, it can be all off and totally wrong and switching around those undergarments and getting things correct. Can really truly being supported the correct way, but that way can really change how you’re feeling and showing up and.
You don’t even know you’re doing it wrong. That’s sometimes what happens as well.
It’s so true when you finally get it right though, it’s whoa. It’s important to feel confident in your body. You can do so many exercises about confidence, about your voice and about your body language and about how you move. There is something to be said about being truly at one and at peace with your body. For women, I always tell my clients every six months it’s time to go get
speaker-1 (54:14.88)
re-measured because your size will change. It just happens to be that way. And if it doesn’t, great, then you’re fine. But it doesn’t get you off the hook that you shouldn’t replace because the garments get used and which is important that you should use them. They get used and then they are less effective. Let’s just say, and what you want is something that positions your body in just the right place.
and where your garments fit beautifully and that when you see yourself, you can take pride in who you are and in how you’re showing up. And there is a kind of an inner self-assurance that’s just for you. That’s why I have to discern this. The inner self-assurance is just for you and it can come through in outer confidence, which is
from you through you that you want to project in a setting where you want everyone to know you’re good. It’s gotta start from within though. So I’m glad that I brought up the undergarment thing because it’s a thing and.
Mm-hmm.
speaker-0 (55:29.23)
And you just, again, from personal experience, you just, you totally make an assumption and you just assume and you walk in there and I just bless this salesperson who helped me because it’s just, it’s so easy to just again, go in there, get the same thing you always do. And it’s simple, it’s easy. don’t have time, but it really does make a huge difference hands down. And especially if you’re saying like, if you’re going to buy and
invest in some clothing. Like it’s definitely worth like step one, get that right. And then be able to have those things with you when you go to get the next wardrobe piece. have one quick question and it’s like a burning question in my mind. Panty house. are we still doing this? Is this still a thing? Are you still, do a lot of your lady lawyers still wear pantyhose? Okay. Okay.
some
Now I would say in fall, it becomes a little bit more acceptable. In summer, nobody really wants to do that. What sometimes, what does happen though in summer or hot months, I know you’re in Texas, it’s H-O-T. I think what’s important is that perhaps if a dress, if you want to wear a dress, maybe
The hemline antithetically goes longer, but you’re in a lighter material, like a Jersey type of a material. Yeah. Because it helps make things more comfortable, but you’re a little bit more covered where you feel like, okay, my legs are not so bare and I don’t have to wear nylons. And then that’s, and then that’s okay. Then of course, sometimes people will ask me, I, I want to wear dresses.
speaker-0 (57:03.416)
you
speaker-1 (57:23.406)
I would wear nylons, but it’s just so hot. I’m not going to do it. But what else can I do? And I have to probe a little bit more. I find out sometimes what happens is sometimes women are very self-conscious of their legs, not even that it’s their shapeliness of their legs, if you will. It has to do with the color of their legs. And so sometimes I will say, if you’re not putting yourself out there under the sun, which I’m not,
saying that you should do that. It’s cancer risk, obviously. What about wearing a safe bronzer and at least getting some color on your legs? Would that perhaps give you a little bit more confidence to wear a dress where some of your leg will be visible? I will make those kinds of recommendations to people because that matters and that usually resolves most of these.
Yeah. And I think it just for us, for a lot of times when I’m having this conversation with people, it’s where are you going? And for us it’s July and good luck. Cause it’s 109, no matter where you go. And adding another layer just sounds like, but yeah, I’m always curious. yeah, of course, depending on the weather, sometimes you just want to like, that’s an extra layer of warmth that makes it better for you.
Correct. And then the fall and winter, not only are nylons okay, but then you have the chance to wear tights. You can wear something more opaque that can also be more shapely to the leg. And I would use the word more containing in a way it’s if you could wear a leg or opaque tights, it’s very interesting what that can do, especially opaque tights, how that can really give very, very definite shape and darkening to the legs.
can also make a person feel very powerful. And sometimes that’s also what a woman would tend to wear with a boot and not really just with a regular old heel at that point. And sometimes the feeling that you get when you’re wearing a boot versus a heel changes. It’s probably similar for the guys. If you’re wearing a loafer versus a lace-up, it’s not that you can’t wear a loafer, but a lace-up definitely looks a little bit more all about business.
speaker-1 (59:39.15)
You can do both, but it also means that your demeanor and disposition can change in the context of where you are wearing it and when you’re wearing it and who you’re wearing the stuff in front of. So being able to change things around is it’s good to know that you have choices and then it’s about what choice are you making and why are you making it and when are you making it and for whom are you making it.
Lots of things to think about, but I do appreciate that fit is always so important. No matter what it is you wear or where you buy it from fit is always key. And then I love that eye color. That’s an easy thing to do. We can all look in the mirror and figure out, figure that out. Does it has been a delight to have you. I’ve learned so much about what I need to be thinking about when I get dressed. If folks want to get to know you more or connect with you, what’s the best way they can do that?
Exactly.
speaker-1 (01:00:29.874)
I really enjoy making connections on LinkedIn because LinkedIn is where you can create community. And I have a nice little community of lawyers that I chat with and create programming with for you on LinkedIn. So that’s my favorite preferred place to meet up with me.
And I would highly recommend that. Like I said, that’s where we connected and I got to see some of your posts and some of your videos and really enjoyed just being thoughtful, being mindful and connecting those inner and outer parts to do a better job with who I am. And then also, like you said, I’m just just naturally going to reflect on the work that I do. Thank you so much again for joining us. And if you enjoyed the podcast, please rate and review it on your favorite.
podcast platform, follow on any of those to get the downloads every Wednesday. And until next time, thank you so much for joining us. We will have all of Joseph’s contact information, including the LinkedIn, to be able to connect with him as soon as this podcast gets out. Thanks again.
