Amanda Carmody & Connecting with Your Client in Depo Prep
Every legal case reads like a distinct narrative, and within these stories are the lives of real people bearing their truths. Enter Amanda, a plaintiff’s attorney with a history as a paralegal, who brings that very understanding to the forefront of her practice.
Our conversation with her peels back the layers of the intricate relationship between attorney and client, exploring how deep trust is cultivated, especially when guiding clients through the stormy seas of recalling traumatic experiences. Amanda’s transition into the legal field amid a pandemic, and her innovative use of Zoom to bridge the client-communication gap, offers a glimpse into the evolving landscape where technology meets empathy.
The courtroom is more than a battleground of wits; it’s a space where human emotions are laid bare. As we unpack the emotional breadth of deposition preparation, Amanda walks us through the careful balance lawyers must strike – acting as legal counsel while providing emotional support. Her candid recounting of a young sexual assault survivor’s case shines a light on the profound influence an attorney’s belief in their client’s story can have.
In this episode, you will hear:
- Learning the ropes of plaintiffs’ depositions
- Building confidence and validating client experiences
- The emotional toll of legal work
- Building trust in client depositions
- Connecting with clients and juries
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Supporting Resources:
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Episode Credits:
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Episode Transcript:
Elizabeth Larrick: Hello there. It’s Elizabeth. I wanted to pop in really quickly before we begin this episode to talk a little bit about my guest, Amanda.
She is. She’s going to come to us from Washington, however, by way of New Mexico. What I loved about our interview was her perspective as [00:01:00] a new lawyer on deposition preparation. She’s got some wonderful insights. We had a great time recording this episode and I hope that you enjoy it. If you want to reach Amanda for anything in Washington or depo prep related, her contact information will be in the show notes.
Enjoy. Hello, and welcome back to the podcast trial lawyer prep with me, your host, Elizabeth Larrick. I am excited to kick off 2024 with a bunch of really wonderful interviews with amazing, powerful trial lawyer women. And today I have one of those. Amanda is joining the podcast. Hello, Amanda. Hi Elizabeth.
Amanda’s coming all the way from Seattle, Washington. And I met Amanda. She reached out to me about depo prep. And we had this amazing conversation and it was like, she was reading my mind. And so I said, Hey, come on and let’s talk. Let’s come on the podcast because that’s what this [00:02:00] podcast is about.
Helping people prepare cases better with a fine tune, looking at using focus groups, deposition prep of clients and of yourself. And so Amanda, just start us off. Tell us a little bit about your journey and then what made that depo prep part of your passion.
Amanda Carmody: Thank you so much for inviting me to be on the podcast.
I’m super excited. It’s my first time ever being on any podcast ever. I don’t mean to go so far back in time, but I discovered that I wanted to be a plaintiff’s attorney when I was a paralegal working in a plaintiff’s firm and saw the impact that getting a settlement had on one of our clients who was catastrophically injured.
It really connected dots for me. It’s not just about making claims against insurance companies. It’s about people and helping them improve their lives and seeing the change that this person went through when somebody finally took responsibility. Set something off in my brain and I was like, Oh my gosh, I need to [00:03:00] do this.
I need to be the person running the show. And got to law school and just have worked towards that ever since. It’s been my second job out of law school. I worked for an amazing attorney named Molly McGraw in Las Cruces, New Mexico. And she is who really planted the seeds of plaintiff’s depositions are not awful.
We never even talked about it. Like we just went in to prep our clients and she showed me the ropes and I learned so much and it just has been a journey about getting to know people and figuring out how to help them tell their story. Absolutely.
Elizabeth Larrick: And so, again, this is why we were talking and I was like, yep, hello, she’s my person here.
We’re going to have so much fun on this podcast. But what I also love is your perspective. And I think a lot of people who listen to the podcast, a lot of people that I work with, we’re not at the place where you are, which is like you’re fresh out and you had this total challenge of beginning [00:04:00] your kind of quote unquote legal career.
In the middle of a pandemic where you basically have only zoomed court. And so that’s a whole other challenge of learning the ropes. Learning to connect with people, but you just started off in zoom, right? You just started off doing everything over the phone or video. And it’s hard for us to be like, so what’s that like, what’s that perspective?
Cause you’re like, I don’t know the other side because I didn’t start that way. How has that been thinking about people who still struggle with using zoom to help people prepare or talk to people or really coach them through getting ready for mediation, like. Give us a little bit of that perspective of how, for you, using Zoom is second nature.
Amanda Carmody: Sure. So definitely there is a benefit of being in real life with people. There’s physical touch, you can take physical cues. I like Zoom, which is, you’re right, how I started, because you are in the person’s face. And I appreciate we’re a podcast, but I have my hands like horse blinders. They have to look at you.
They [00:05:00] can’t look anywhere else. And if you, Position your camera so that you are looking into the camera when you are talking to the person you’re talking to. Like, they’ll look at you. We all look at ourselves, I think, a little bit on Zoom. You want to make sure. Like, I have a huge pimple today. And I want to make sure that it’s not showing.
But if you can make it so your little image is right under your camera, no one will ever know. And if you have that dialed in, blinders on, connection, it’s a lot easier to talk to your client and get them to trust the process and trust you. I also take as much time as I need to. Thank you. If I have a client who is older, they are not comfortable with Zoom.
And sometimes I will actually go help them get set up the first time and make sure we can do that process together. But you’re right, it’s hard to think of it because I’ve never been into a courtroom for a hearing. But no, I think there are definite benefits of being on Zoom that you don’t get in real life.[00:06:00]
Elizabeth Larrick: And I think you nailed it. It’s time one on one with people that really ends up being the most like, of course, it’s great to be in person and it is, but I think it’s that one on one time. And like you said, you are face to face and you normally wouldn’t be that, you wouldn’t be that close to somebody sitting, even if they’re a client that you have a really strong connection with, or you’re super friendly, or you just really jived really well.
You still wouldn’t sit that close.
Amanda Carmody: That is
Elizabeth Larrick: zoom. Zoom.
Amanda Carmody: And it goes both ways. I know we’re talking about plaintiffs, but deposing a defendant, you can get right up in the camera looking at them and be like, can you see me? I’m looking into your soul, sir. And so it’s fun.
Elizabeth Larrick: See, this is how I know you’re supposed to be a plaintiff’s attorney because that’s exactly right.
I didn’t even think about that, like getting right up super close when you’re deposing an expert or whoever, maybe somebody on the other side. Let’s talk about thinking through client deposition and you’re [00:07:00] talking about helping them tell their stories. Walk us through your perspective on what is a struggle for clients and what kind of battles they may be having that a more timely, more structured depo prep helps with.
Amanda Carmody: Yeah. I, I always start at zero with my clients. I pretend that I am hearing about their case for the first time. I tell them. to start talking to me. Like I don’t know anything about what has happened to them. And I try to structure my sessions, depends on how big the case is or how complex the events are that you’re talking about, but typically.
I have one prep session to go over the facts of the case and the event. I have another session to go over what I would call general damages and the impact it’s had on the person’s life. And after that, I decide if we need a third session, which is usually short, to tie anything up or to get them ready for their actual [00:08:00] deposition.
But in that first session, we started just zero. What were you doing before X happened? Whether it’s Slip and fall, car crash, sexual harassment, just get us started. And we really break it down bit by bit. And I found that it’s really intimate. Nobody prepares you in law school for this type of exposure you get into somebody’s life.
They’re oftentimes telling you about the worst thing that has ever happened to them. Something really traumatic. And that is, I think, an honor and a privilege. They don’t share that with very many people. Usually. Usually it’s none.
Elizabeth Larrick: Usually
Amanda Carmody: you’re
Elizabeth Larrick: the only
Amanda Carmody: one who they’re talking to. Exactly. Especially if you catch them early and you say, don’t talk to anybody about this.
You and I have attorney client privilege. You can’t talk to anybody. Sometimes people have therapists, a lot of times they don’t, but you as their attorney have to, while you are not their therapist, treat them with the [00:09:00] gentleness and kindness that a therapist would while you walk them through this event.
Elizabeth Larrick: And I think even most people who have therapists don’t talk about it in the way that clients that come in the door, we have to dive into both sides, the facts and the logic and the emotion and the impact, they are totally gnarled up together. I love starting from ground zero because Do you take nothing for granted?
And they don’t either. That really helps because that’s how the defense is gonna come in, or opposing counsel’s gonna come in, is at ground zero, and sometimes that tension and frustration alone for a client can really throw them off because they think you already have discovery. Well, you already have all this information.
Like, why are you asking me again? That emotion can derail our thinking brain because we’re just. Frustrated trying to figure that out versus just like, okay, let’s just be in the moment. I have that expectation of going through it bit by bit. Lawyers, especially in larger firms, like cases are, I’m not going to say pass along, but that’s just the chain of custody.
It’s like it comes in and then [00:10:00] it goes to one team and it goes to the next team. Sometimes you have the same lawyer. Once you sit down for that one on one depo prep, you really are getting way more one on one time than you would have at any other point up to
Amanda Carmody: that. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I enjoy DevoPrep so much because I really like bonding with people, and that’s what it is.
And that’s why I think I’ve seen people be successful in their own depositions, is you’re giving them the confidence to sit there and tell their story. And when you have that connection and the trust in this person, you’re holding their hand through this, right? You can’t tell the story for them, but you can figuratively help them walk through it, and it’s just so nice.
To not only have that feeling myself, but to see somebody really own in to their own story and start believing themselves. I think that’s one of the most shocking things to me in prepping people is people doubt themselves so much and it’s not because what they’re saying isn’t [00:11:00] true. It’s because they’re in a system that is constantly telling them they’re wrong and that they aren’t that hurt and that what happened to them isn’t that bad.
I If you have that floating around in your head, even a little bit, you start to feel a little hopeless. Oh, yeah,
Elizabeth Larrick: absolutely. And I think a lot of that that helps that is saying it out loud. You know, that’s a very big part of making it true is saying out loud and they live in their heads. You know, without you want to talk to about it.
So coming into depo prep with a very focused purpose, like you’re saying, it’s very structured and there’s a purpose behind it all versus just going in and just being like, all right, they’re going to ask some questions and here’s your discovery answers. I want to make a little note because you mentioned bonding.
Um, there’s a lot of stuff on bonding and I’m going to guess, but I think you’ll correct me. You’re not talking about, Hey, how are your kids? Let’s talk about going to the softball game. You’re talking about the intimate bond. Of a relationship of trust.
Amanda Carmody: Yeah, definitely. I know my [00:12:00] clients in a very bubbled but detailed way.
A lot of them, I know their kids names and things like that. I have no idea what they’re doing that afternoon. Or something like a friend would know. But you start to know the deepest insecurities. that your clients have, that’s something they probably don’t talk about with anybody. And so that is the bond I’m talking about.
It’s a caring type of relationship. And I think making your clients feel like it’s a two way road is also really important. They depend on you in a certain way. You do not depend on them in that same way. But when you show enthusiasm for their case and show compassion, They can see when that affects you.
They can see it in your face. If you’re just sitting there checking the box, they’ll know that you’re not tuned in and you will not get them to open up in the same way you will as if you’re present and truly invested in what they have going on. [00:13:00]
Elizabeth Larrick: Absolutely. And I think you’ve nailed it. It’s not the same two way road, but it is in the sense of attention and questions.
And. Thoughts, one of the things that I think people always glaringly miss in deposition prep is we are building confidence, but you have to tell them what you are saying is 100 percent true.
Amanda Carmody: Yes, I didn’t appreciate this. One of the first clients that I helped prep was a young woman who was a sexual assault survivor, who was assaulted when she was a high schooler, and part of her claim was that all of the students were didn’t believe her.
This teacher got removed from the school, and she was called a liar, she was called much worse. Her own parents didn’t believe her. And we did our normal depo prep. That was just an element of it. And in her deposition, when opposing counsel was saying, what do you mean people didn’t believe you? Our client sat there and said, the first time I felt like somebody believed me [00:14:00] when I was talking was when I was talking to my attorneys.
And I didn’t realize it until that moment, and it was just like, my stomach, my heart just seized up. And I was like, oh my gosh, this young woman has walked around for years carrying this. Feeling like she wasn’t believed until we talked to her, like that isn’t right. But again, it goes into that privilege of you aren’t necessarily aware of the impact you’re having on your client’s life.
And so you have to be so careful and so gentle in the way you interact with them.
Elizabeth Larrick: Absolutely. And like you said, you got to encourage them out loud. You may be the only person who is saying this is real, what you’re feeling is real, this is real pain, you know, because a lot of times they’re walking around with a lot of doubt because the system has basically said you’re a liar, a cheat, and a fraud.
Amanda Carmody: Yeah, I took a mediation course in law school. That was not the mediation most of us are used to. I was expecting it’s going to be mediation how you sit in separate rooms and how you have tactics [00:15:00] negotiating with the mediator on the other side, not that. It was like touchy feely going into alternative dispute resolution, sitting, finding out what the parties really want, because sometimes it’s not always money.
It was that type of mediation. And in the moment, I was like, nope, don’t care. It’s always about money. It’s about. Reaching that ultimate goal. I have come back to what I learned in that class so much because it’s about validation of concerns and wants and then being able to reflect and reframe and so Sitting and listening to your client and telling them things like oh my gosh I can’t believe you’ve been through that that’s so hard or that is such a real thing that you are experiencing that Encourages them to open up more but it also helps them Hold on to it and own it and when they’re sitting in their deposition if they have the confidence to believe what happened to them is Real and true.
They will do so much better than if they think they’re trying to convince you [00:16:00] Somebody.
Elizabeth Larrick: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think you nailed it with the reflection, which is why you want to have multiple meetings because then you allow them the opportunity to reflect. One of the things I always hear back from clients after our first session is I was exhausted.
I was so tired and we did a lot of just emotional heavy stuff. They did all the talking, you know, and they said I was so exhausted, but then I felt so good because I just never gotten to talk that much about it.
Amanda Carmody: Yeah, I try to let my clients know it’s going to be exhausting because that’s another thing people don’t appreciate about asking your client to sit for their deposition.
It is so emotionally and mentally hard to sit and talk through that stuff. And so I use the word gentle a lot. I tell my clients to be gentle with themselves because a lot of times they say, I don’t know why I can’t get over this. I don’t know why it’s so hard for me to talk about this. I don’t know why I was so tired after a meeting.
And that’s another great opportunity to be like, Because what you’re [00:17:00] talking about is awful and hard to talk about. So be gentle with yourself.
Elizabeth Larrick: And you’re bombarded with pictures and images everywhere else that say, you should be done. This is over. I always tell people it’s going to take much longer than this, but standing up for yourself, speaking the story in your own words and how you want to say it uninterrupted, will significantly help you in this journey.
This is a battle. This is a journey. This is not the final end all be all. It’s just going to take more time and nobody talks about that. And I always get really frustrated too, because I always ask people, especially depending on what kind of their injuries are like, what has the doctor told you about how long this is going to be?
Well, they just said, it just takes time and I’m just like, Oh my gosh, like please let people know. I see X patients with the exact same situation. Here’s generally how long it takes. Up to two years, because people think, Oh, six weeks, I’ll be fine. You know, it’s just like, you have to sometimes be that extra voice of, listen, this is what I do for a living.
And I’m [00:18:00] letting you know, it’s going to take longer. So be gentle with yourself. That’s a great way of putting it. Be gentle with yourself. It’s going to take longer.
Amanda Carmody: Yeah, it’s always surprising to me how much pressure, not only our clients, but we put on ourselves to get over things. And another thing people don’t really talk much about is how it affects you, the attorney, to hear about these horrible things that happen to your clients every day.
Those details are swimming in your head, whether you’re consciously thinking of them or not. And hearing about traumatic events. It’s going to affect you too, so it’s just a, like, big bundle of be so soft and gentle and kind when you’re in this process because it will affect you too. It will be exhausting for you too.
I could sit and talk with some of my clients for four hours, but I try really hard to keep it to an hour and a half or two hours when we talk because I [00:19:00] know that it is going to be mentally and emotionally draining for both of us. And usually. Both you and your client have work you have to do afterwards, right?
Like you can’t just sit and curl up even if you feel like it.
Elizabeth Larrick: Exactly. And I think Because being a plaintiff’s personal injury attorney for a lawyer for a period of time, like it wears on you and we don’t give ourselves enough rest when it comes to that. That’s why we have 30 minute prep meetings because it’s difficult.
It’s really hard. There are definitely times where I talk with lawyers and they just say, I feel so horrible knowing what they’ve gone through or feeling like in a similar situation, like my kid was the same age and it was just a really difficult time. Having a longer one on one conversation because it’s going to hit me so emotionally.
I want to be professional. I don’t want to get upset and to cry. And so it definitely, I think, comes into a shortened prep session because they think they’ll be fine. They can tell their story. Opposing counsel will be fine. We’ll do our [00:20:00] normal prep stuff because I do find the more horrendous Tragic injuries cases assume that they’re going to get a light touch when it comes to opposing counsel, but that’s missing 50 percent of the whole thing.
The other 50 percent is them showing up and the emotional burden just for them to show up and talk.
Amanda Carmody: Exactly, and you’re asking them to relive something awful, and I’ll be a little, like, sidetracked squirrel for a minute. The amount of people that I went to law school with that sat there and said, It’s supposed to be Law is supposed to be logical.
Where is the answer? Where is the reason? Juries should be removed from emotions, and judges should be removed from emotions, and make decisions based on just the black letter law and the facts in front of them. And, yeah, that would be a really interesting way to practice, but [00:21:00] it misses emotional pain and suffering.
It misses the human experience of what somebody has gone through, and you will never get those damages accounted for if you are not comfortable sitting with them. Your client, in their emotions, in those horrible places. And if you don’t have the capacity to sit, like you’re saying, attorneys who sit for 30 minutes and can’t handle it because it makes them feel awful, that’s okay.
Identifying that you do not have the capacity to sit through that is really smart, but then you have to do something to make up for that, whether Calling in a person like you to come in and help them handle that, or even changing their practice to do a pellet work. It doesn’t have to be drastic, it can be manageable.
But if you can’t handle sitting with emotions with somebody, then yeah, their deposition is not going to go the way you want it to. And you’re going to really expose your client to being super vulnerable when they [00:22:00] already are so exposed.
Elizabeth Larrick: Or just know that they’re not going to be vulnerable. They’re going to keep it all inside.
And then the next thing that I always hear is we’re just going to save it for trial. And I’m always like, gosh, 98 percent of stuff doesn’t go to trial. So you’re really missing the whole mark. A lot of people still have that mantra in their minds, like my day in court. And you watch it in TV or whatever, like such a different game working with a client.
And she was really wanting to get like, Big picture. Give me some big picture. Give me 30, 000 foot view. It’s depo. But normally I do that in trial to help them kind of get the big picture. But we literally drew a diagram of the courtroom and the big picture of, okay, it can come down to two questions. And she just was like, I never knew.
I’m like, yeah, you would never know like that. And here’s where you fit. Here’s your part. And it’s so important because you speak directly to the jury. They don’t want to hear lawyers. They want to hear [00:23:00] you, your experience, because emotion is the human experience. We decide everything on emotion. So in my focus group, people say, well, I just need to know the law.
We need to see the past. Where’s the law in the past?
Amanda Carmody: Oh, it’s so cute. Yeah, it’s the part I really enjoy about what we do and it’s what makes me feel like I’m doing the right thing. I always tell my clients I’m on the right side of the V because I want to make their best argument. I don’t want to tear them down.
I don’t have any. I don’t mean to get on a rant about insurance defense attorneys, but it would make me so sad to think about, okay, my job instead of building a person up is tearing them down. And I get that’s a very biased perspective. But when you’re sitting with a person, a human being who’s trying to Who’s hurt.
It breaks my heart to think that there’s anybody out there who would make them question what they’re going through is valid and real.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. And I think that’s the [00:24:00] terrifying part that most clients are absolutely positively just terrified because now it’s like the interrogation room. Like, that’s where the emotional warfare comes in.
They know they’re going to get grilled. What I always say is, Most lawyers say you’ll be fine. Just tell the truth. It’s just so silly. It’s telling a little kid who’s learning to tie his shoes. Just use your laces. It’s obvious we tell the truth. It’s obvious you use, but how do I tell the truth? And that’s where that prep comes in to help them know what the how is.
You’ve already got it. Let’s just. Tell me about it. Let’s just organize it. Where are you at and how can we help manage those expectations and get everything in order for you to feel confident?
Amanda Carmody: One thing that I tell everybody to do that I learned from Molly is notice your own client’s deposition. Which is a really weird thing, but send the email to defense counsel, say, Hey, I want to [00:25:00] schedule plaintiff’s deposition.
Can you give me dates? And that gives you the ability to start their deposition. And you know, the right questions to ask, you know, how to get them to open up. Not only that, it shows your client that you believe in them and you’re confident in them, but it also sets them up for success when you pass them.
And it’s the defense attorney’s turn. Getting to go first and ask your client questions first is unbelievable. And it’s what you do in trial. I don’t know why we don’t do it in deposition more, but when you pass them and the defense attorney starts asking them questions, they get to say, I already talked about this.
They already know where the questions go because they’ve talked about it and sitting and learning what they’re going to say and learning what questions you need to ask to help them open up and then doing it and asking those questions. It all comes together beautifully. And you have a client who, yeah, when they get their day in court and you go to [00:26:00] trial, trust the process and know that you’re going to take care of them.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. I think one of the biggest things that when I talk to folks about doing a structured witness prep and depo prep, they just said, wow, they felt so good about what they did. And then it was like, we went to mediation. And they were like, Nope. They still had that same confidence. And when we got to trial, they were confident to know, okay, I know that you guys are going to make the right decision.
So there’s so much more trust and I see a huge shift when there’s not trust and there’s a lot of infighting and struggle when it comes to even little things with the client. And I always just say, you’re worried about the jury liking. The client, but do you, because the jury is going to pick that up in a heartbeat.
And I can tell you there’s people who say, I want to make them likable. I’m like, well, if you don’t
Amanda Carmody: like them, how are you going to convince people [00:27:00] to like somebody that you don’t like? That’s right. No, and it all is like, all these words are tied in so many ways into what we do. I do tell my clients, your job is not to convince anybody.
Let that go. Set that free. That person across the table from you is going to tear down every argument we make. They are going to look for the weak spots. They are going to judge you. And that’s scary, but just telling them right up front, don’t try to change that. Do not try to overcome that. I’m on your side.
I am with you. I believe you, and as long as we’re sitting there together, you’re going to do well. As long as you get that we are a team, we’re going to do just fine. It’s when your client thinks that they’ll convince the other team to help them score a touchdown, that they get in their head and wrapped up and trying so hard to show something.
No, we’re going to work on it ourselves. We are the offensive. We are pushing forward. We [00:28:00] will make our own touchdowns. Ignore them. Set it free.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, exactly. And I was just telling them, they’re just a mechanism. They’re asking questions. They’re just giving you opportunities. This is what this is about.
Literally opportunities. The minute you try to think of it as convincing or getting defensive, you’re working your brain in the wrong direction.
Amanda Carmody: Yeah. I love that. I love telling them it’s an opportunity. It’s not a question. It’s an opportunity. I really love that.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. And I was like, you have the opportunity also to disagree.
And I was like, what do you mean? I’m like. How easy is it just to say, I disagree, that’s easy. And I’m like, is it true? It’s true. Like, okay. Did we just solve a really huge problem? Yes, because I want to disagree with him. Great. Does that mean you have to argue or be defensive or, and I was like, absolutely not.
Literally the simplest thing is just to say, I disagree.
Amanda Carmody: I disagree.
Elizabeth Larrick: And then like, they think they have to convince and do all this. And I’m like, no. And that’s why we always try to take it back to the most simplest form of what are we doing here? [00:29:00] And sometimes I literally get like a visual aid out to help them show like, okay, here are all the things that go into this case.
But here’s this little perfect puzzle piece that only you can fill. So we really need to hone in on what is it that you can fill and because we can get doctors to come talk, we can get the police officer to come talk or we can go get, so you got to give what your perspective is, the facts that you know, right?
But there’s going to be something in here that you can just let go of because like you don’t have to do that heavy lifting job. We’ve got other people to do that for you. And that’s it,
Amanda Carmody: right? Yeah, I love the analogy of the puzzle piece, because another thing I’ve noticed is people feel super helpless through the whole process.
They feel helpless in the event that brought them to litigation, and then they feel helpless throughout litigation because it is something they don’t know anything about. Most people don’t know how to even deal with property damage when they’ve been in a crash, and so they feel [00:30:00] super helpless. And giving them that purpose of the book, we have the whole picture, except this missing piece, and that’s you, is such a remarkable thing to give your client that power, because they had probably felt powerless through years of living through this.
Elizabeth Larrick: Oh, yeah. Just going through the beginning stages of getting it started, like, before they hire lawyers so frustrating, like even just a simple car wreck becomes, Oh my gosh, I have spent every day calling these people and it feels so disempowering. And then it’s, Oh, we’ll take care of everything. Lawyers will file the lawsuit.
There’s only just two or three things that you have to do. And that’s where I’m like, I say, okay, this is the thing we talked about. This is the place. Are you ready to rumble? We got to get you ready. That’s why we take so much time to get ready because it’s one of those things. And I added something to my list of things I always tell people, which is you got the right to understand the question, you need to take a break.
But then I haven’t yet gotten good wording on it, but it’s like. [00:31:00] The coolest thing and I do think it’s the coolest thing about deposition is you can’t be interrupted. Like how cool is that? A lawyer does not get to interrupt you. Like how cool is that? Of course, I’m a lawyer so I think that is cool because we get interrupted constantly by each other.
It’s just oh, it’s so frustrating, but literally they have to listen to you. That’s the opposite of it. It’s in black and white and it never goes away. Okay, that’s what people think. What’s the big deal about transcript? I’m like, oh, let me tell you because it. We don’t like as lawyers, we, Oh, it’s client deposition.
No big deal. But we like poor over deposit, I mean, of transcripts, like experts and like how we make our cross, like whatever else, why wouldn’t we really take that to the next level of explaining it and like how cool that is. Employer cool. But, wow, here’s another place that you’ve got some power. Alright, let’s take it, let’s do this.
Amanda Carmody: Yeah, it is really cool. I have a question for you. In between prep sessions, what do you do for your client to help them be able to [00:32:00] step away and give themselves a little break, but hold on to what you’ve talked about and not be starting fresh every time you leave?
Elizabeth Larrick: I’m a huge fan of doing something visual and then you have to write something.
And a lot of times we use these giant notepads, right? So we’re organizing around what happened. We’re organizing around like maybe a piece of the damages. Or maybe we just do a timeline. I have them take a picture with their phones because generally we are creating it together. Make sure we walk through that, but that gives them something if they need to refresh, they can just take a quick look at it.
The other thing I like to do is I really like to give homework, but it’s just thinking homework. That’s why I tell people, okay, I’m going to give you some homework. I don’t want you to write anything down. I just want you to think about it and give it to your brain and your brain will start working on it for you.
The only thing sometimes I’m like, okay, we’re going to. Dig deeper on the impact and what’s going on. So it’s sometimes it’s helpful to go like whoever you’ve been living with, right? Maybe it’s parents, maybe it’s friends, maybe it’s [00:33:00] spouses and just say, Hey, do you remember, itty refresh my memory on some of that stuff.
Right. And then say, Oh yeah, like that’s generally the hardest part is just refreshing that memory of like. With so much time that’s passed. So that’s what I really like to do. Not give them anything super heavy, but just back of the brain thinking stuff or talk to somebody or take a picture and just take a look at it.
Amanda Carmody: Yeah. I think the visual aids is a very good idea because it keeps it simple, but it’ll trigger that memory of sitting there. I give my clients homework. I give them a sheet of homework that is, like you said, we make it clear. This is our communication. This is something we’re working on together. But I try to keep it light until a week before their deposition.
And actually have it be some of the heavy stuff because I want them to practice thinking through these things we talked about because it helps them when a defense attorney asks a question that maybe we haven’t practiced verbatim, [00:34:00] they know what to respond with because they’ve just sat with what they’ve said.
So I make the homework based off of our conversations. Which is another opportunity to show your client. I am listening. I care about what you’re saying. These are important things, but from practice or a prep session to prep session, it can be a little tricky I think because you finish the first one and your client wants you to shake it off get over it get moving and then you Come back and it’s okay.
We got to get heavy again
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, I’ve started to do like a mini meeting, like just to give them the guideposts, like here’s where we’re going and what’s going to happen. And then I remind them of that constantly. Here’s where we’re going next. So they’re like, okay. So that it’s always, we’re going to keep moving through.
And there are times where I’ve definitely worked with people and I put it pretty close to the deposition because I know literally our brains forget like an instant, like we, we are literally, so 10 [00:35:00] days goes by, we got nothing left and I’ve had it to where we do a piece of work and then I noodle on it.
And then I come back to him and I’m like, we got to do that again. Like it did not feel like it was right for you. And they’re like, I’m so glad that you said that because it just didn’t feel like me either. And I was like, great. Look at this. Let’s go back. And sometimes it happens that we, it really depends on the person, but you may not know that until you get in there and you start working through and you can, working with enough people and talking with enough people, you get a little bit of a spidey sense of, Oh, Oh, that’s a sensitive area.
Let me make a little mental note. Like we’ll get back to that. Maybe this session, maybe another session. And what I also love about the approach of literally asking questions and just listening and going through is so many lawyers have trepidation about I’m going to have to confront them about a B or C.
And I’m like, If you literally just sit down and [00:36:00] start talking to someone, she’s nodding her head. Yes, it will come out naturally. And if it doesn’t, you’ve spent all that time talking and listening, you can still say and bring up, I have this concern, or what about this thing? There’s no quote unquote confrontation.
Amanda Carmody: I am a big Ted Lasso fan. And there’s the whole line of be curious, not judgmental. And that is just the nail on the head to me. If you approach your client’s step prep as Okay, we need to figure out what problems we have so that we can fix them. That’s not a right way to talk to somebody about something that They went through, that’s horrible.
And it’s super confrontational, and they’re already in a confrontational system. If you approach it with, just start talking to me, let’s just work through this. And really try to learn where that person’s coming from. With curiosity and not sitting there thinking like, oh my gosh, this is a huge problem, we gotta fix it.
It just goes so much smoother for me. Everybody, for you, for your [00:37:00] client, like, you don’t have to make the process so exhausting. You can just take the easy road, which is,
Elizabeth Larrick: And you’ll hear something, it’s like you talked about that mediation course, and there’s a book that I read, Never Split the Difference, and if you just sit and listen, it will solve your problems.
I’m like, it’s so true, like mediation, like if you will just listen, you will find something that will solve the problem versus you having to come up with the solution. And again, we as lawyers, we’re problem solvers, we want to have solutions, we really want to help people. And this is a place where I’m just like, Other places, yes, you’ve got to go find that solution.
You need to put your thinking cap on. You need to do that. This place with your client, though, like listening will solve so
Amanda Carmody: many problems. I had a client who would say things like, 100 percent absolutely all the time, things that you tell your clients, stay out of those extreme areas. Never and always. It was killing me.
And [00:38:00] I could not figure out how to get this person to stop saying that. I said, if you say that, this is what they will interpret it to me and tried to explain it and then just let him keep talking. And it turned out he worked in restaurants for a really long time. And that’s the lingo. Think about going through the drive thru.
Okay. Chick fil a. And they say, absolutely, my pleasure. And you just are trying to be accommodating. And so by learning he worked in a restaurant, learning that was the vernacular he had picked up, we could start breaking that apart. You are not in a restaurant. You do not need to be accommodating with this person.
You are not here to please them and say, yes, sir. No, sir. Yes, ma’am. No, ma’am. Let that go. And it was just a real aha moment that his experience in a restaurant was totally irrelevant. It was. Decades ago, it just was a habitual thing he had picked up.
Elizabeth Larrick: What I always find when you point something out like that, you’ve listened long enough to say, Hey, if you notice that you didn’t, they’re like, no, they don’t even know.
It’s totally subconscious. And it becomes like that thing. [00:39:00] I want to fix that problem. But I always say like, you just wait a little bit, give a little space, ask some questions. Again, you’re still going to listen in and find, oh, That’s where it’s from. Now I know the route to go because sometimes we give that explanation of when you say X defense says things Y, or they’re going to ask now all these cross exam questions because they’ve never been in that situation.
That’s not scary to them. That’s the, there’s still no, it’s a complete disconnect. And so that’s why it’s. Just like you said, get back in there a little bit, get a little more in there. And then, Oh, like it’s a people pleasing thing. And how can we get out of that mode and have a little bit of presence about, Oh yeah, I don’t need to be a people pleaser when it comes to this deposition or really ever, but that’s a whole other podcast we could,
Amanda Carmody: there’s so many tangents we could run with for like a whole series of podcasts.
Yes.
Elizabeth Larrick: So I want to bring us back before we started recording. I was [00:40:00] talking to Amanda about being passionate about helping clients prepare for deposition, being passionate about client testimony. It’s not that it’s rare, but it is a little bit rare and trying to talk to people sometimes about this amazing thing happened or the helping part of it.
Going on a total tangent about like people, lawyers totally blaze over, they’re so gay. And so I was trying to come up with an analogy because we all get taught like how to prepare somebody for deposition. Just depends on what point in your career, normally early on. Sometimes you maybe you don’t do litigation, then you do and you just basically follow somebody else’s outline or you watch somebody like, okay, I guess that’s it.
We meet, we do discovery responses and good luck and send them all through the deposition and Good day. Amanda, tell me we had a good analogy. So we’ll talk through our analogy about what depo prep can sometimes look like.
Amanda Carmody: Yeah, I’ve been watching a lot of Great British Bake Off. And so I immediately thought of cakes and just starting with all of the ingredients for a cake and dumping them into a [00:41:00] bowl and then expecting it to come out as a cake is not going to work very well.
Most of us just. using the analogy, are past the point of dumping all of the ingredients into a bowl and pulling out a cake. We can get to a point where you mix them in the right order and then you bake it, but that cake is probably not going to be super great. It might be from a box. It might even be the kind you take out of the freezer and thaw for 30 minutes before company comes over.
But the more You read your cookbooks, and the more you talk to other people who are baking cakes, and the more you The more you bake, though! The more that you bake, the more depositions you take and defend, the more you see what works. To the point where you’re getting to a place where you have something you can be proud of can be your showstopper.
But even when you get to the point of having like your beautiful cake that everybody agrees looks beautiful, tastes beautiful, there’s still a better cake out there for you to bake [00:42:00] and you can still get there. And so have your cake, eat it. I don’t know how far we can push this down. Yeah. As lost. Yeah,
Elizabeth Larrick: Because I think a lot of times, because it is something we do in every case, generally there’s some kind of, oh, this is how somebody else did it. And that’s why I said it’s like Duncan Hinz like, oh, it’s client deposition. All right. Here, let just do the same thing. I’ve always done egg oil go. That’s good enough.
Because yeah, it’s a client deposition. What differences does it really make? Once you really start to dive into like human emotion, human psychology, you don’t need a degree. I don’t have a degree in that. I just started listening and watching and paying attention to, Oh, if we order it this way, people There’s so much more that people grasp.
They’re so much better that they do. And that’s the same way with baking a cake. Okay. There’s a difference between baking soda and baking powder. Big learning moment. That’s right. And you get better [00:43:00] tools. And so you can help so many different people. And I think. You nailed it very early on, which is type of prep, the amount of time is very much fashioned around the person and the case.
You get so much better at doing that when you have built up your tools and your toolbox and know what it takes when you have resistance from somebody. Oh, I’ve got somebody who talks way too much, or, oh, I’ve got somebody who’s really defensive. You have this experience of like, okay, but what I always know and can always go back to is listening questions one on one time.
That’s always going to be a part of it. And same thing with baking a cake. There’s always going to be specific ingredients, a specific order. It changes up a little bit, but there’s such a huge difference between that cake you pull out of the freezer and the cake that you bake yourself. I mean, we were trying to think of an analogy.
Like
Amanda Carmody: it’s such a good one. I’m sitting here thinking of more ways. It’s like cake. Some people don’t like vanilla cake. Some people are [00:44:00] allergic to gluten. It still is the same general idea. You’re making something that looks like a cake, but there’s certain. Frostings you wouldn’t put on certain cakes and certain cakes can’t handle weight.
Heavy things and heavy toppings. You have to be delicate and that’s just how people are too. And as long as you’re like, you’re saying to try to wrap this up nicely, as long as you’re approaching it with kindness and curiosity and just openness, you’ll be able to figure out what type of cake you’re baking and how to make your client.
feel like they did something good that they can be proud of.
Elizabeth Larrick: And if you do it, if you just try a different one, one time, you will see phenomenally the difference. It may not feel like it. You may think, oh, it’s still the same, but that connection that you have with that client has completely changed. And final thought on our analogy here is a huge difference between a Martha’s story.
Stuart cake and Duncan Hines. And once you’ve had one, you don’t ever want to go back. Yeah. You don’t want the box [00:45:00] cake anymore. That’s right. That’s because you’ve seen, like, you see the change. You sometimes you actually feel the change and you may say, but Elizabeth, Amanda, it didn’t get the case a little quicker and we still had to keep doing all these things.
Think about the client. Like how much more happy were they to deal with you? How much more happy were they to get you whatever you want and turn down that low ball offer and not be. Emotionally tied up personally and thinking I’m not worthy because I got this low ball offer because that is a total thing.
You nailed it. Like people feel hopeless and worthless because that’s what they’ve been told the whole time. So
Amanda Carmody: yeah, no, I think that’s
Elizabeth Larrick: exactly it. Elizabeth. Oh my gosh, we have tackled so many things, but I’m really mostly proud of our cake analogy.
Amanda Carmody: It might have gone a little too far in time, but I think I’m going to go get cake.
I don’t know that I’m going to bake it. I have a holiday party to go to, and I really hope there’s cake.
Elizabeth Larrick: Oh, Amanda, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really enjoyed having [00:46:00] you. so much, Elizabeth. I appreciate you. Awesome. Hey, if anybody has questions for Amanda or you’re up in her area, I know she would probably love to grab a zoom with you or an actual real live person, coffee and talk about depo prep.
All of her contacts will be in the show notes. If you want to reach out to her, thank you all so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform. And if we are not connected on LinkedIn, please go and follow and connect with me so that we can continue this conversation.
All right. Until next time. Thank [00:47:00] you.