Rian Butler & Focus Group Success
Ever wondered how trial lawyers can peer into the minds of a jury before setting foot in the courtroom? Rian Butler, a battle-tested attorney from Austin joins today’s discussion to unveil the secret weapon of litigation: focus groups.
Rian illustrates how a focus group’s fresh eyes can reveal critical aspects that attorneys might miss. Our candid conversation exposes the strategic edge that focus groups provide in sculpting arguments and honing in on ways to genuinely connect with jurors through compelling narratives.
Navigating the modern landscape of trial preparation, we swap tales of virtual and in-person focus group dynamics. The episode is packed with practical advice on keeping participants on the edge of their seats and how multimedia presentations can solidify an argument’s impact.
In this episode, you will hear:
- The importance of focus groups in litigation
- The challenges and strategies of conducting virtual and in-person focus groups for trial preparation
- Understanding jurors’ perspectives
- Adaptability to trial schedules
- Unexpected jury deliberation outcomes
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Supporting Resources:
Learn more about Rian Butler and his Austin law practice: www.butlerinjury.com
Ever wondered about setting up your own virtual focus group system? A system that could easily produce a virtual focus group to test your cases with lower cost and stress. Well, I am setting up an online course for lawyers to do just that on May 1st. But you need to be on my email list to get access, use this link: www.larricklawfirm.com/connect
Episode Credits:
If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.
Episode Transcript
Hi there. It’s Elizabeth here. I want to jump in before we get to this great content, an interview with Rian Butler and tell you a little bit more about him.
He grew up in Houston, and fun fact, he was born in Ireland. He had some litigation experience in Houston before [00:01:00] traveling over to Austin, where he calls home now. He runs his own firm, but he’s done plaintiff’s personal injury litigation for many years before opening his office, and I had the pleasure of working with him on a particularly large file, and you’ll hear more about that in our interview here today.
Ryan is growing his law firm. So if you know anyone who may be interested in a new position who might want to move to Austin or already lives in Austin, please look him up and his contact will be in the show notes. All right, let’s get to it. Hello and welcome back to the podcast trial lawyer prep. I’m your host Elizabeth Larrick.
And today we have a guest, a local guest for me. Which is wonderful. Who’s going to come and talk to us about focus groups, Rian Butler, who runs his own office here in Austin. You already know that because I told you in the mini intro. So welcome to the podcast. very
Rian Butler: much, Elizabeth. Great to see you again.
It’s been a little while and appreciate you having me on. I’m looking forward to talking with [00:02:00] you.
Elizabeth Larrick: Awesome. Well, I know that my audience is looking forward to hearing from you because there may be people who listen in and they’re just really not so sure about virtual focus groups, about these little mini focus groups.
And so I love having people on to come tell us your experience because you’ve Been running focus groups for we did ours together and you know, we’re going to talk about that case that you had and run through those, but tell us, you know, what was your first introduction to doing focus groups?
Rian Butler: The first one goes way back, actually, before I was a lawyer.
I think it was during law school, I worked at a law firm in Houston. They did a lot of big single event cases, but then also stumbled into some mass tort cases just based on where they were. And they had a 20, 000 person plaintiff mass tort event. My boss was on the steering committee. They brought me into trial prep and strategy and stuff like that.
And they ran a focus group [00:03:00] back then. And so That’s been 15 years, almost 20 years, since I first heard about the idea of it and refined it and it’s different than I realized at first, but yeah, it’s, it’s valuable. It’s so valuable. And so, it’s something I’ve been around for a while.
Elizabeth Larrick: I’m really curious.
What was your impression like watching it? Like the very first one?
Rian Butler: It was different than anything I’d done. I mean, you just think legal things, legal cases, lawsuits are for the courtroom, for judges, for lawyers, and they decide everything and they figure it all out. It’s different. You learn pretty quickly that we’re not in as much control as the lawyers aren’t in as much control as you think.
And a lot of different viewpoints. These people, I call them potential jurors, but people on the focus groups just, they think of things you don’t think about, they see things differently. You’re, you know, we’re in this exposure case. 20, 000 plaintiffs and we thought we had everything figured out and they’re asking questions we’d never considered.
And so it’s just a, it’s a really refreshing look, maybe frustrating sometimes, but it’s an invaluable process.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, it’s a really good word, refreshing, [00:04:00] because we get so buried and like you said, you think you have it all figured out, you’ve got your frame, you’ve got how to look at it, and then they just blow it all away.
Uh, yeah,
Rian Butler: I mean, the one we did last year together, I got close to trial. I think I told you two or three times we were, we had a continuance two days before we were down to pick a jury the second time before continued. And you’re so ingrained in it. I mean, you know, every, well, you think, you know, every little thing, but you’re going through witnesses, you’re outlining for Dyer and you’re just in it from your view and other people see it differently.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. Yeah. So let’s jump in. So we did virtual and then we did an in person, but before we even get into that, why this case, what made you think, okay, this is a case that needs to be like, I need to hear from a focus
Rian Butler: Yes, I think reached out to you on this one a couple of years into my practice. I mean, partly it was just timing.
And as the practice built into more complex and trickier cases, this one stood out, it had issues on both sides of it. As we, as we see them as [00:05:00] plaintiff’s lawyers, it had some liability issues or questions and a lot of damage questions. It was a very serious injury, but we had some issues with our treaters.
We had a lot of preexisting stuff. It’s an older client, which you tend to have the pre existing stuff and again, you get so close to a client, you can get wrapped up in it as a lawyer and wanted to make sure I had an outside view of how is somebody that’s not talking to this person every week, every day, going to see this and.
Think about, you know, the issues that are at play. So for me, it was just one of those cases where it had the two complex issues on both sides, you know, it’s not just one thing it had high limits. So it wasn’t just a simple policy limits, standard policy limits case. So we, we had a lot to figure out and it from the get go, it wound up settling.
But from early on, it just seemed like a case that was destined for trial and we almost got there. So, you know, a lot of them you prepare for trial, but. You kind of feel like it’s not going to get there. This is what I really thought was going to get there. I wanted to make sure I wasn’t getting the lay person’s [00:06:00] perspective.
For the first time when I was waiting for a verdict or something, you know, wanted to have that input.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, and I think, you know, just talking through just kind of the basics of it. I mean, it was a premises liability case, which are always tough. I don’t care what venue you’re in. And here in Texas, like, There’s always a chance of MSJ.
So I know that you had put a lot of pieces into play to make sure, right. We, we jumped out over that hurdle, but then also you had put a lot of damages pieces into place to make sure, you know, those client depositions went well, because you managed not only your client, but two very close people to your client as well.
So you had kind of a, you know, Spread kind of thin when it comes to client management, right?
Rian Butler: I wish I’d had a bigger firm back then to manage all the pieces, but it definitely helped me get ready for the trial. I love premises. I say that as a relative term. A lot of firms, people don’t take them at all. I have a few.
They can just cut both ways so easily. Like this one, one of the best facts is that, [00:07:00] uh, my client had tripped over this area before reported it. They refused to fix it and that’s great. So now they have actual knowledge. They’ve disregarded the property management company. They’ve done nothing about it.
But it goes right back to, to your plaintiff’s knowledge and open and obvious issues that we’ve seen so many bad cases in Texas on. And so you have one piece of evidence that’s great and it cuts against you at the same time. So definitely wanted to work through that. I think we got some on that particular note, some great quotes and little threads from the focus groups on what a home means and how people should fix things and do it right the first time.
So we got some good things from that, that I was getting ready to weave into my opening before Dyer. Yeah, they can be such difficult, tricky cases. If, if a property management company is supposed to fix something, why, why shouldn’t the person also have to look out for it and avoid it? And, and you know, when you already have a big battle on the damages side, it’s like every, every piece of.
fight or piece of energy that’s going out to fight something is taken away from elsewhere. [00:08:00] And so I wanted to have liability as tight as we could to focus on the impact to her. Cause yeah, it was, it was a, it was a brain injury case. So much about brain injury, I think is overlooked by doctors, by, by lawyers, by the public can be misunderstood by everyone saying involved and just a lot of moving parts.
Yeah, we had a lot of issues. We can talk about the brain injury issues specifically if you’d like, but a lot of moving parts to sort through.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, and we will. So let’s, let’s talk first about doing virtual. So we did virtual for this one. Had you done a virtual focus group before?
Rian Butler: I hadn’t, I had not done a virtual.
No, I’ve, uh, I’d sat in on one where we were watching through a camera. So it was kind of, I had done it, but everyone was, was in person there. So I hadn’t done one with everyone remote.
Elizabeth Larrick: And how, like, just thinking about like that format or ever where you. Did you have like any kind of worries that like, it’s not going to be the same.
You’re not going to get as much information on them.
Rian Butler: Yeah, I [00:09:00] think probably a lot of the same concerns we go through. And I don’t know if we all as a, as a practice have consensus on this yet, but the stuff we worry about in trials, you know, are they going to be paying attention? Are they distracted? Are they watching TV or something else going on?
Or, you know, they’re just getting a check. To show up. So some concerns, I mean, on the whole, I was excited to do it. It was better than, you know, certainly better than not doing them, but there’s some issues there, but I think the people that signed up, the people that are taking their time out, we’re, we’re there to, you know, do what they said they would.
And I think the types of people that sign up for them, find it interesting or at least want to know more. So I think we kept their attention pretty well. I don’t think it was, I don’t see a downside to it. It was certainly better. The second one we did being in person, but. There were no concerns by the end of it.
Certainly.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and we, you know, as far as thinking through, you know, keeping people engaged and involved in what you’re saying, like we had, you know, you’d made some great power points. [00:10:00] We had some great clips of different people to do credibility, you know, and I think that’s kind of where.
Liability wasn’t totally super easy, but that’s where I feel like we got a lot of good comments for you to use, because I want to say, and you correct me if I’m wrong, were you getting ready for mediation? And then the in person was getting ready for trial. Does that sound right?
Rian Butler: Exactly. So, yeah, I think I used stuff from both for trial, but the first one was in preparation for mediation and gave us some good ideas.
I was thinking as you made the point, I mean, I think the virtual, it’s kind of like a virtual hearing, as long as the connection is good, as long as everyone’s, I tend to prefer it because it’s so much easier to share stuff and point on the computer. You’re not turning around and wondering if they’re watching.
So there are definitely parts of it that, that helped, I think. But yeah, that, that first one was to try and refine some things and sort out mediation. Good, good memory.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. I remember really specifically you had brought, we had a clip and it was the client’s [00:11:00] sister and she was so fiery, like super, super fiery.
And it was a little bit disappointing because like what we got from like from that group on damages was, Oh my gosh, Rian, you got some work to do. Like we gotta, you gotta go figure out someone’s got to give us a baseline, you know, there’s gotta be, you know, because the sister was not nice. She was a little bit, but like, she literally was like, I don’t know why she’s not doing this and blah, blah.
And so there was like, from our perspective, I think, you know, you know, the client so well and the medicine and what’s causing all this, but the focus group’s reception of that was very much what the sister’s perception was, right? Like. We don’t get it either. Like, we’re not really sure about, like, could she really be or is it just the family making it up?
So there’s lots of toss around on the, on the damages for that virtual one.
Rian Butler: And we’re in Williamson County in that case, and this family was from rural Texas, you know, as [00:12:00] classic as you can get of pull yourself up, why do you need to sue someone, figure it out type of thing. So those were concerns from, from some of those family members and stuff.
We were worried about getting from a jury. So again, it’s. Better to hear that stuff six months before from, from someone else to refine. And I think it makes a good point. So those videos. Were recorded videos I did and anticipation mediation. So we had some family members, we had a sister, a cousin, some other folks.
They all wound up giving depositions, which weren’t quite as bad because for those videos I tried to pull some stuff out, you know, good and bad. So that was a big thing that first, first folks year I told you about. We got a big number and, and we won everything. And I was like, great. We’re looking good.
The lawyer said to tell me, no, you know, that’s not what we want. That’s not the point of a focus group. You want to get kind of hammered. You want to get beat up and find the bad stuff. So that’s what I was kind of trying to do going into mediation of, you know, showing the group the bad side of things or not the bad side, but not all the rosy stuff.
And [00:13:00] maybe the stuff that might come out on a witness stand if we were in trial. So it’s good to get out ahead of that and gauge the reaction and figure out how to present it differently or, Insulate against it. Or we might have decided to cut that that sister. I think we decided she didn’t have enough to try to bring her at all.
Elizabeth Larrick: Well, we, we noodle, I mean, I noodled on it and I just was like, you know, from my perspective, let’s reframe this because that is who your client is supposed to be right now. Because that woman, I think, was she like a year or two older than your
Rian Butler: client? We had a sister and a cousin and they’re both the same age, right?
Okay. Yeah, that’s a good point. That’s something I, I wrote some, I think somebody mentioned that or maybe we came up with that, but they were a good baseline of what, what this client should have been. Yeah.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. I like, okay. If you want to know where this woman was supposed to be in life, like, boom, she’s right here, you know, and she is fiery and she is, you know, but there was still that disconnect of like, she couldn’t quite grasp that the head injury was causing like all the rest of the stuff.
So
Rian Butler: it’s hard when you’re [00:14:00] not in it in any brain injury case, and deal with it every day. And then in that one, especially Their particular relationship, my client would go see her every couple of months and vice versa. And they’d hang out and they had lost that. And you can kind of tell the story of what they lost, but the sister’s not seeing it play out every day.
And so we had some really good stuff from the family that her son and her daughter in law. that she had to move in with. And so those folks, I think that probably helped ease it a little bit too. You know, the sister’s going to have some of that view, but the people there every day were just great witnesses on, on the gradual decline and in the step by step because they see it every day.
And not that I wish I had that in every case because I was, it was sad how she had to be removed from independent living to live with family to take care of her. But it was so powerful to have those people that can talk about every day and, and the irritability and the mood swings and the lack of You know, just wanting to do anything or the things they used to do.
Whereas maybe his sister comes to town every six [00:15:00] months and client gets up for it, pushes through, puts on a brave face and doesn’t seem so bad because everyone has good days and bad days and brain injury. Folks have had some really bad days. Mm
Elizabeth Larrick: hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so then we, then we turned around and you did in person and we, we changed up the style.
We did a totally different style. Came in and did kind of a little, a little mini mantra, right? We had some openings and some, some statements and some closings.
Rian Butler: Yeah, exactly. I think that was, Probably my, my biggest drive for that one was, was that type of stuff, refining some themes and some stories and some trying to get ideas on different things from, from the potential jurors.
But that was the shift on that one was let me practice some board IR questions. Let me practice some openings. You know, because you’ve got a few hours, but you can’t put on an entire case. So if makes you put on a succinct case, put on the high points, what are the high points of how this has affected her?
We brought in [00:16:00] my friend that did the defense side and had to put in a succinct case of how do we lose this? Or how do we get, get dinged? So it really makes you focus. And really, I don’t know. I mean, I’m, I don’t know that openings need to be more than 15, 20 minutes. I mean, I think I feel like going much longer than that.
You’re maybe boring, Jeremy. Certainly any case can be different and maybe case calls for it. But if you can tell your story in 10 or 15 minutes. I think that’s gonna be pretty powerful. So it kind of helps in that sense of what’s rambling, what’s unnecessary, what’s too much info, and it’s, it’s good to practice it.
I mean, I love getting in the courtroom, love the, the rush of it. We don’t get enough of it. I don’t think as civil lawyers, you know, what, how many cases go to trial? 2 percent or something still. So any opportunity to practice that stuff is huge. And so that’s what I use it for. I think, I definitely get the idea that a lot of people go in as the defense lawyer so that they can attack, they know the case better and they want to play the defense lawyer and poke holes in their own case.
But for me, I wanted to run [00:17:00] through some themes, some practice questions or practice opening and try and hit some of those themes and see where it landed. So that was really valuable for me on that.
Elizabeth Larrick: You’d be surprised how many people would go ahead and pick their side. And I always tell people like, listen, I love playing the opposite side.
So let me give me giving my hands on that because I will definitely throw in some things that I’ve heard from participants say that I’ve heard, you know what I mean? So, and the defense, the whole shtick, like, because You know, that’s what makes your feedback better is a really strong defense case. And you guys put on like, or, you know, he talked about and went through in a PowerPoint, like, here’s what the defense expert’s going to say.
And, and some of it had a little bit of traction because that, you know, the preexisting, I think was really difficult because you had a retiree. I mean, you had somebody who was already having some, some issues as you, as you do when you age.
Rian Butler: Exactly. But a lot of. [00:18:00] similar peripheral issues, you know, trigeminal neuralgia and so different pain that maybe she was similar to what she was going through post concussion, depression, anxiety.
I mean, who doesn’t probably have that in their record somewhere, but when that’s the thing dragging you down and there’s a bunch of it in the records that can make it tricky. So yeah, I think, you know, I’m in growth mode in my firm. Hopefully next time I’m this close to trial and doing one. I have someone else that’s in the case with me because I think one thing that maybe held us back a little bit and my friends stepped up, it was huge, it came in, actually my first guy canceled and so the one that did it for us was on real short notice.
But, you know, you need to have someone that’s in it, and can pick out every little thing on both sides and some of that I think was me putting my, my take on the player side, you want to make sure you have enough pushback. And it’s not just a walkover.
Elizabeth Larrick: Mm hmm. Yeah, what do you feel like was kind of one of the couple of big takeaways from that in person one?
Rian Butler: For me, I was, I was really trying to focus on [00:19:00] floor dire and opening, and so I was really trying to get some good principles, get some good rules, figure out what types of topics kind of move people, what types of principles they agreed with. Got some great quotes, which I, it’s been a while now, but I don’t know exactly how I was going to weave them in, but I was going to kind of work backwards and for dire, like a sorry, did a lot type start with your ending and get, let’s them get there.
But I think somebody had to go like, you got to do it right the first time. So, you know, they’re saying if a property management company has an opportunity to fix something and they don’t, you know, they should have done it right the first time. I think that’s a pretty good kind of principle to go to.
Somebody had said something good about, you know, home should always be safe and this is outside the home. And so that was a theme or a, or a principle I was going to try and get to. And if you can get, if you can get a jury to say stuff like that, I think on their own in Fort Iyer, I think that would have hit pretty good, but that’s kind of what I was trying to get with some of these things that I think, you know, somebody that’s not been in the case, somebody that’s looking at it with fresh eyes, what are they going to think of, and then I can kind of, Feed that [00:20:00] to a, to a jury and let them get there in the short time we might have on, on board.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. And I mean, those in person ones are, I mean, they’re priming you for your presentation. You know, they’re forcing you to put that opening together. They’re forcing you to put some questions together to, like you said, just to get up there, stand on your feet and, and deliver and take what they give to you.
Rian Butler: And there’s, there’s still something different about staying at the front of a room and looking folks in the eyes and going through, I mean, versus on zoom and everyone’s kind of got used to zoom and going through that. It’s, it’s still a little different when you get there in a room and you’re, you’re looking in the eyes, telling the story of what your client’s been through and what happened and it’s got to hit, right.
It’s getting a little different and you can see it from them. If something pops up a little bit with that one with, I think we were testing Two things I wanted to test was Our issues with the treaters. We didn’t have friendly treaters that wanted to be involved in litigation. They wouldn’t talk to us.
They would, we were going to have to subpoena them to depositions. They wouldn’t talk [00:21:00] informally and they didn’t do much help in the records. There was very, you know, cut to the chase. They didn’t do us any favors. And so we had to talk about, well, you’re going to hear from retained experts and not the doctor’s treatment.
And how’s that going to go? And so you get some looks and kind of feel the vibe from people on that. Also wanted to kick that around the idea of. Our client not being in the courtroom, you know, I think it’s tough to ask this person who’s been through all this to then come into court and hear from their family and friends about how bad their life is or how, how much worse it is than it was before.
I think we got some pushback on that. I think by the end, people came around to us, but there was enough initial pushback that it, that it concerned me about doing it because. I was not going to be able to talk to the jury and explain to them why you’re doing things. So it was good getting that feedback in person.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yep, yep, yep. Well, so the case continued, right? Again, because you had a couple of continuances. Did you go back? Did you look at any of the focus group materials to help you when you’re getting ready again for that [00:22:00] second round of, of, of trial?
Rian Butler: Yeah, for sure. So I had kind of different notebooks for board IR and opening and closing and made notes early on.
I think we did ours in December and the first trial was going to be January. So that was pretty fresh continuance two days prior. So I had a lot ready to go and then the next one was going to be May and we were down there to pick a jury. Great. Before we had to continue that morning. And so that was pretty much, it was, I knew my case by that point, I think it’d been two and a half, almost three years, you know, every little seam.
And so really I was kind of going back through the notes. Well, you know, what, what are these jurors that are about to come in going to be thinking, what do I need to reinforce? What do I need to do to get this across to them in short time? We have, so I know I said it before. I just, it’s so helpful and powerful to.
We don’t have these people. I mean, maybe we have some in our lives, your spouses, your friends, you can kind of stifle with, but to have 10, 12 people come in and give you their opinion and the types of people that show up for a focus group [00:23:00] are probably more prone to call you on some stuff or to give you some strong opinions than maybe some jurors are in a courtroom.
But that’s what I was going back through is what, what are these people that are seeing this for the first time, hearing these things? These concepts in the story for the first time, what are they thinking? Try and put myself in their shoes as I was about to question them. Man, I’m getting, I’m getting fired up now thinking about it.
I was so ready that morning and we went from number seven to number two. That first one just wouldn’t settle. It was a plaintiff and a defendant in the courtroom. It was a state farm car crash and they wouldn’t settle it. And so we got bumped.
Elizabeth Larrick: Wow. I appreciate hearing you say, you know, that going back to hear what Everyone said the good people, the, the naysayers, because there’s like some kind of magic when you say what’s on someone’s mind and that’s what you can do if you’ve actually on focus groups, you can walk into that jury selection and nail what somebody may be thinking and they’re like, Whoa, like, [00:24:00] yeah, you nailed it.
Rian Butler: Cause I’m reading a lot and thinking a lot about, and we talk a lot in our industry about persuasion, but I don’t know. And this is an original thought of mine. I think you’ll hear some smart people say, but I don’t know that you can persuade anyone of anything. They have to persuade themselves. And so you got to understand what they’re thinking and how they’re going to get somewhere.
And, you know, firing from the hip on the first time is, can be tricky. So, Kind of knowing how other people are going to think about things and we’ll have our biases We’ll have our views on things and how we attack things and if we’re stuck in that And how we see it we’re going to miss out on a big perspective of how other people are thinking about things
Elizabeth Larrick: And the other thing I was I had lunch with another lawyer and he was talking about his wife had just been a juror.
And she said, when they got back there and deliberate, like all of a sudden everyone’s personal experience come in and then it’s, and that’s what we get in focus groups is all of a sudden, like, I may ask a question or you may ask a question. All of a sudden they’re like, well, you [00:25:00] know, my, and it’s like, that’s not the question, but that’s what happens back in, in behind closed doors in that jury room.
You want to know what those discussions are. And that’s what focus groups give you.
Rian Butler: Yeah, I sat on a jury in law school. I’m surprised they picked me, but we, it was interesting getting the discussions in there and afterwards, it wound up being a directed verdict. And it’s funny because Directive verdict.
You understand the judge rule as a matter of law. It was a criminal case that not guilty, and we’re in the, the jury room afterwards, and some people were ready to convict like . They, they just see this totally different than, than some of us that are in the, in the industry.
Elizabeth Larrick: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. I mean, that’s. I think you nailed it.
Like, you don’t want to go in blind and learn on the, on the very first, you know, go around for, for jury selection, like some really strong opinions. And then, you know, you don’t really know how to navigate that because you’ve never experienced or heard that in practice.
Rian Butler: Yeah, I think this year I’m kind of penciling a few to just do more and [00:26:00] more the ones that are really going to get close to trial or, you know, maybe are going to get past the first mediation and settle after that because it opens your eyes.
It’s there’s a guy I was talking to at a conference who kind of similar idea. He does a life care plan or a mini life care plan light on every single case. You can get some with nurse practitioners and things like this on a lower cost, but he gets every case. And I think On any litigation and battle case, I mean, I’m, I’m kind of thinking you probably need a focus group on anything worth, you know, fighting that hard on.
So
Elizabeth Larrick: yeah, because I’m not just
Rian Butler: saying that to you as you run this. But I just, I think it helps a lot.
Elizabeth Larrick: Well, you’re speaking my love language there because I totally agree with running a focus group on every, I think if you are going to invest in litigation, which means if you’re having litigation where you file it and you do one depo when it turns over, like, I don’t know where you’re litigating.
Cause that’s not the world I lived in. But if you’re going to make the dedication to litigate a [00:27:00] file, you know, it’s going to take time. You know, there’s going to be a couple, but you’ve got to build that case because that’s what the expectation is. And why not run a one hour virtual focus group and figure out what are the holes?
What may you be missing right off the bat that you could go plug it up, ask a defendant, ask a, you know, corporate rep, or at least know like what kind of possible. Education gap that you’re having, meaning you got a car at case. Listen, we kind of all know how those things are. You may have an unusual injury or you may have an unusual other kind of glitch or maybe liability concern.
But, you know, if you’ve got different kind of case or different theme of liability or, you know, some unusual damages or something, you just want to test out to see what else do I need. To make this damages case, you know, there’s nothing. I mean, you’re always going to learn something. I have not yet run across a lawyer who told me like, I’m so upset that I ran this.
I didn’t learn a dango thing. [00:28:00] Okay.
Rian Butler: Yeah, I mean, you gotta look at the cost benefit and hopefully it always makes sense, but I don’t know how you’re doing something wrong. I think if you’re, if you’re not learning something, I mean, they’re going to give you something and something a little different you hadn’t thought of or different than you thought about it.
So, yeah, I mean, two depo, minimum limits, car crash, clear liability, maybe you don’t need it, but you know, anything that gets a little more complex and a little more high value, you’re just, you’re, you’re leaving a lot out there if you’re not getting outside views and perspectives. I’m curious how much the defense side does them.
I mentioned it to, you know, built up a pretty good working relationship with the defense attorney. I told him we’d focus grouped it twice. Like I’m like, Hey, you know, we’re ready. We’ve thought through all this stuff. I don’t know if that ever played into it or if they went and focus grouped it after the second reset, but it resolved a month or so after we got reset again.
So maybe they went and focus grouped it. But no, I think I’m curious. Do you know, have you seen much, or do you know much on the defense side, how much they are focused grouping things?
Elizabeth Larrick: [00:29:00] Well, you know, I know of a firm or two in Austin that does it, but you’re going to see when it’s a larger entity that they’re going to be doing that.
But are the, the, the insurance companies, they just don’t have a lot of, yeah. I mean, it takes a pretty skilled defense counsel to get them to do it, you know, because. You know, it’s tight purse strings over there. So it’s
Rian Butler: insured. Somebody don’t want to pay for
Elizabeth Larrick: it. It’s an easy return on, yeah. Okay. So I think an hour in and maybe a little bit of money, but the return on that is going to be exponential because I can use it.
In my mediation, I can use it here, how I think about it, how I actually say, you know, what it is and all those things kind of factor into the return of, you know, the investment.
Rian Butler: Yeah. And it’s coming back in that case. I did a lot of things, a lot of the stuff I was asking about and trying to get reads on, obviously it was case specific, but a lot of this stuff weaves throughout our cases.
And so, you know, I was testing some, [00:30:00] some dollar asks we did and some framing of per diems and things like that and that stuff. It helps you think about things in every case, not just, not just the one. So yeah, it’s, you’re leaving it out there if you’re not, if you’re not at least doing one or two here every year, I think.
Elizabeth Larrick: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . And I, yeah. Like I said, I don’t know, I know like some of the larger entities, when I say that I’m talking like UPS, FedEx, like Home Depot, like those folks who are like, they’re in a little more control over kind of what’s happening. Sometimes those insurance companies, not so much, but I have seen it.
We could probably go through an example or two that we’ve heard probably here in Austin. It happened actually just the other day, but we’ll talk about that off this episode. So you’ve done a really good plug for focus groups and I appreciate you.
Rian Butler: I don’t know if I plan on being the focus group salesman coming on, but I’m just getting excited talking about it.
Now I’m trying to think of other cases we can do it.
Elizabeth Larrick: It’s fun. I think it’s so much fun. And, you know, I just want to reiterate something that you said earlier in the episode, which [00:31:00] is it’s new thoughts they give you, but it’s new language and phrases. And so you mentioned like pulling those literally what they said, writing that down and bringing that in with you.
And that’s really what we need help with as lawyers, because we’re going to say it in the lawyer way, non lawyer people think, and that is just so powerful. That’s why, like, you know, we get everything transcribed so that. If you want to get that second double dip of learning, you read it. You don’t just watch that video.
You actually read it. And then you really absorb the words even more.
Rian Butler: Yeah. I think there’s a big push or maybe it’s the stuff I listen to and read, but I think there’s a big push towards more plain, plain English, a lay person terminology and phrasing, and why not? That’s, who’s going to be deciding your case.
And so getting their thought process and their language, I think is. Sometimes it’s big. Nobody wants to listen to lawyers speak legalese all day.
Elizabeth Larrick: No, and it makes everybody else feel inferior. You know, I mean, they just don’t like that. I don’t like that. As a little kid, nobody likes that. I mean, [00:32:00] it’s where that little feeling comes from.
So Rian, thank you so much for joining the podcast. And telling us about your experience.
Rian Butler: Thanks for having me on.
Elizabeth Larrick: Awesome. If anyone is interested and wants to talk more to Rian about his experience or what he’s doing in Austin or growing his firm, which is wonderful. I congrats his contact will be in the show notes.
Also, of course you already heard, but just in case you may have missed it. Focus groups is what I do. So if you’re interested in doing a focus group, please reach out. And lastly, I started an email list. If you want to join the email list, free downloads, case studies, other kinds of tools that I may be using.
I’m going to pass that along in those emails. So you can sign up for that and the link in the show notes as well. All right. Until next time. Thank you so [00:33:00] much.