Why are focus groups so transformative to the legal field?
Today I invited my friend and fellow lawyer Shelia Wilkinson for a “podcast takeover” – Sheila becomes the interviewer, and asks me about my background and what brought me to doing this unique work of running focus groups for lawyers.
We look at the methods and motivations I use, the value of focus groups in legal practice, how groups help lawyers communicate effectively, identify key case elements, and enhance overall strategy.
Focus groups can transform a legal practice by offering a clearer perspective and fostering confidence in your arguments – ultimately helping lawyers navigate complex cases more effectively.
And stay tuned for part two between myself and Sheila, where more surprises and insights await!
In this episode, you will learn about:
Assessing risk
Gaining certainty in trial preparation
Building better communication skills, and understanding nuances
How to identify key case elements
How to navigate complex cases more effectively
Follow and Review:
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Explore the importance of building confidence in clients for depositions in this episode of Trial Lawyer Prep, hosted by Elizabeth Larrick.
Learn the difference between confident witnesses and ego-driven witnesses, and discover practical strategies for instilling confidence in clients ahead of their depositions.
Elizabeth emphasizes using clients’ words, co-creating preparation materials with them, and offering positive feedback. The goal is to help clients believe in their stories and communicate them effectively under questioning.
We also look at the importance of role play and testing, to ensure clients are truly prepared for their testimonies.
In this episode, you will learn about:
Understanding Confidence vs. Ego in Testimony
Building Confidence: Using Client’s Own Words
Co-Creating Documents for Confidence
The Importance of Positive Feedback and Encouragement
Role Play: Test Your Client’s Confidence
Follow and Review:
We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.
Supporting Resources:
Check out the latest ways to re-wire your brain for better deposition prep in Episode 143.
Book a free call with Elizabeth to pick her brain about deposition prep:
Elizabeth welcomes Michael Schwarz, founder of Prairie Nation Creative, to discuss innovative approaches to creating settlement videos for trial lawyers.
Michael, a seasoned filmmaker, shares his journey from film school to starting a company specializing in impactful legal videos. His company introduced the concept of ‘Trial Trailers™ ’ – concise and compelling videos designed to summarize case damages and liability, pushing for quicker settlements.
Michael also talks about ‘demand impact videos,’ a more affordable alternative using online interviews for lower-tier cases. Additionally, they explore the challenges of engaging viewers, the importance of early evidence preservation, and how creative storytelling can significantly impact legal outcomes.
Michael also touches on his passion project, the Abandoned Atlas Foundation, which focuses on documenting and preserving historic abandoned buildings, and provides another snapshot into his production style.
We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.
Do you have an upcoming trial and want help writing your opening statement? Book a free call with Elizabeth to see how she can help.
Don’t want to miss an episode? Join the Trial Lawyer Prep Newsletter for resources, tips and episodes by going here: www.larricklawfirm.com/connect
Episode Transcript
Elizabeth Larrick (00:01.032) Hello and welcome back to the podcast. I’m your host Elizabeth Larrick and today we are going to dive deep into a topic that I know all trial lawyers want to know just a little bit more about and that is using videos to promote your cases.
And to do this, I brought along a good friend of mine. I just met him and I saw him working. I saw his work. It was amazing at the Arkansas trial lawyers association seminar. So of course I said, we got to bring him on the podcast to spread the knowledge that he is bringing to this amazing space. So welcome to the podcast, Michael Schwartz.
Michael Schwarz (00:25.962) Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I’m just absolutely thrilled to be talking about this. Good.
Elizabeth Larrick (00:52.392) Good, I hope so. You have formed your whole life around filmmaking, which I think is amazing. And then, so tell us a little bit about your background. I know right now Prairie Nation Creative is your company, and we’ll have links in the show notes for everybody. But tell us, Michael, a little bit about kind of your background and how you got started doing film.
Michael Schwarz (01:04.269) Sure. So I mean really I I’ve just always loved watching documentaries and even as a kid. You know I always thought though like in history class that some of the documentaries were you know a little bit outdated and you know needed a fluff and so coming into this industry I went to film school
at the University of Central Arkansas after graduating from Bishop McGinnis here in Oklahoma City. And I got a Mass Communications degree there at UCA. And then I moved to California for about four years looking to get into the film industry. And I actually got a job at a documentary production house that specialized in this type of work.
And I immediately fell in love with it. I had no idea it was it was even a need or a thing and as you know, people started needing more video for for cases to help explain stories and I was able to use my talents and At that company and then I didn’t really like California I kind of liked where I grew up in Oklahoma and decided to move back and I started my own company and I Couldn’t be more thrilled to be here and and now I’ve like
I’ve been lucky enough to have expanded into Arkansas, Texas, Kansas, even New Mexico and just all around we’re starting to really grow outside of our bubble here. So I’m just thrilled to have this opportunity. so that’s a little bit about my background.
Elizabeth Larrick (02:44.296) Yeah, awesome. So here’s what I’m hearing. You’ve got some extensive film experience where you went to California, you learn from the pros, and then you said, you know what, I’m going to bring what I know to a brand new space, right? There’s not a lot of folks in Oklahoma city doing what you do. So I think that is awesome. But let me tell you what, why would you get into working with, with trial lawyers? What was that pull to help in that particular segment?
Michael Schwarz (02:54.317) Well, you know, it’s interesting you actually said what you said, because I think when I first brought this back to Oklahoma and this area,
Lawyers would oftentimes only use this type of video or thing on really, really high end cases like multi-million dollar. And that was all well and good, but I feel like it was all come down to cost.
Michael Schwarz (04:22.679) I was actually talking to one of my friends, her name is Kathy Christensen, and she said that, yeah, lawyers around here use those every now and again, but they save them for like the multi-million dollar cases, and you know, in which they can be really powerful for. But in my head, I was like, how can we bring video storytelling and the technology of nowadays with compassionate editing and interviewing? And I was like, in my head, I’m like,
how can we apply that to lower tier cases that really need that type of storytelling and to where lawyers don’t have to save it for the really, really big cases. And so I was just in talks with one of my friends and then they gave me a connection and I kind of did some preliminary like just asking them questions, picking their brain. And I found out they were like, I would use this on every case if it wasn’t, you know, 15 to $20,000 to have a video done like this. And so I was like,
How can I make one more affordable? And that’s kind of how the business was born.
Elizabeth Larrick (05:25.956) Awesome. And that is why when I saw you at Arkansas trial lawyers and I saw what you were doing and went to your website and reviewed the videos that you done, I was blown away that you were able to create this amazing, powerful video that was not a day in the life, by the way, even though I know that’s what you do and we’ll get to that. I promise. But We’ll get to that, I promise.
I love that you are coming into a place to allow lawyers access to this amazing product. And that’s why was like, okay, we are totally aligned because I feel the same way about focus groups. And so I’m so that’s why I was excited to get you in here. So tell me a little bit about you do a couple of different types of videos for lawyers. And I know we talked about day in the life and it kind of has a negative connotation a little bit like it’s, you know, old and traditional. So
Elizabeth Larrick
Walk me through your services.
Michael Schwarz (06:14.157) Well, you know, and that’s that’s a really valid point. So I knew immediately when I when I kind of came up with a product, I didn’t want to call it a day in the life video or a settlement documentary. And again, those can be really great and very powerful. But part of what the problem was is that a lot of lawyers like we’re oh, it’s just they’re going to follow my client around. And I could do that with my cell phone. Right. And so
Michael Schwarz (06:43.105) Part of what our talent is is the actual storytelling being You know creating a narrative that helps paint a picture of what exactly that clients been through and I know that some lawyers are familiar with settlement documentaries as well, which actually include interviews but Looking at a few of them. One of the biggest things I noticed was that they were really long and often what the videos intention is to help summarize to the other side what the case damages are, maybe if the lawyer wants to include liability, and they want to include pretty much just a little snippet of what the trial is gonna look like to say, hey, let’s settle this thing ahead of time. But if you bore that other side and make it too long and everybody’s repeating the same thing over and over and we’re not cutting to pictures and we’re not, you know, it kind of looks low quality, I personally think that low production
quality can backfire and be more of a detriment than it is a help. And so while you have your client story, putting that together in a package that’s quick and fast, also it takes the time to breathe and the moments that it needs to breathe and really be there emotionally. kind of, the idea is that you want to make whoever’s watching forget that you’re even watching a video.
you’re just ingesting this thing and you’re like, you’re almost captivated by what’s going on. And of course, you know, defense attorneys, the goal is not to make them cry. That never happens. But the, Yeah. know, gender, I’ve never heard a story where like, wow, a defense attorney was so moved, a defense attorney is moved not emotionally, but like they’re moved in the sense of like, I definitely don’t want a jury to see this.
Elizabeth Larrick (08:21.736) They don’t cry. What are you talking about?
Michael Schwarz (08:37.843) And they’re like, you know, yeah. So I don’t want the trial version of this video to come out in front of a jury, which is actually how we coined the term trial trailer. Because I believe that these videos are literally a trailer. This is what the trial is going to look like if we don’t settle right now. And so in my head, I’m like, that made sense. I’ve never seen anyone else call it that before.
And I don’t know, it just kind of stuck. And now we get calls asking if they can have a trial trailer. And it’s really interesting just how coming up with a new term for kind of a refresh of an old thing that people are used to, but if we put more of a modern spin on it, it can really make a huge difference.
Elizabeth Larrick (09:27.9) Well, and let’s give yourself some credit here. You’re not just re-labelling something. I mean, the editing that you guys do, the thoughtful process of the story, the thoughtful types of interviews. mean, there’s a lot of creative process that you put into it that has created a new product that fits with what’s happening right now. And that is people have shorter attention spans than they’ve ever had.
Just give yourself some credit here.
Michael Schwarz (09:39.15) I mean, there’s a lot of creative process that you put into it that has created a new product that fits with what’s happening right now. And that is people have shorter attention spans they’ve ever had. We all look at video for everything, but we don’t want to watch a long one. You know, we’re impatient. So, I mean, you’re combining all of this amazing film background.
Elizabeth Larrick (09:56.082) We all look at video for everything, but we don’t want to watch a long one. You know, we’re impatient. So, I mean, you’re combining all of this amazing film background, like movie thinking background with what we need to, as lawyers, tell a story that’s quick and impactful.
Michael Schwarz (10:06.861) like movie thinking background with what we need to, as lawyers, tell a story that’s quick and impactful. Well, and I actually appreciate you catching that. I sometimes get into this place where I downplay myself. So I appreciate you catching that, but you’re exactly right. Every single time, like I even do focus groups within my own company and we kind of like, hey, how can we
What’s missing? What can we add? What can we take away? What’s too much? Before we send it to the client. It’s a total team effort here. It’s not just me doing all the editing and I hire some, you know, overseas person just to throw it all together. It’s really a team effort here. And the more that we grow, the more people we can bring on and the more collaborative. And my favorite part is even working with attorneys, you know, because they’ll bring their own ideas.
I have, what’s great to me is that some clients will come to me and say, Michael, here’s the client’s information, go do your thing. And we have other attorneys that come to us and say, Hey, I have an idea. Let’s work together to bring in like, they’re very involved. And, and if you were to ask me which one I prefer, I don’t have a preference. I really, I love the sometimes working with attorneys and I love just being able to go out and do it too. So, but at the end of the day, the
main point is that there are really, really difficult hurdles in our attention spans nowadays. And if a video is 30 minutes long, it has to be changing subjects, like new content, and you have to bridge things together. Make it flow, because if you let the video die down even for just a second, you’re gonna lose them. You you really gotta keep it moving, keep it going. And so sometimes…
Videos are 30 minutes, it doesn’t happen very often, but when it’s 30 minutes, there’s a lot. There is a lot to the case, and a very… generally they’re about 12 minutes, but, sorry.
Elizabeth Larrick (12:08.968) Yeah, that’s a large case. Awesome. So I know you do… Sorry, 12 minutes. I’m so sorry. So normally about 12 minutes is a trial trailer.
Michael Schwarz (12:18.665) Yeah, and that’s about a standard, but I would say they can be as short as four minutes, and they can be as long as, like I said, 30 minutes. It just kind of depends. I say average.
Elizabeth Larrick (12:29.488) Yeah. And so I know you do a lot of the trial trailers. What are some other things too that you got that y’all are doing? I know you said, so are there any other kind of videos that you guys are producing for lawyers?
Michael Schwarz (12:32.941) things too that y’all are doing. know you said, so are there any other kind of videos that you guys are producing for borders? So it’s interesting you asked that because when we started filming them and putting them together, one of the biggest notes we had still was that even though our prices were significantly lower than the 15 to 20,000, it was still like, hey, I’d love to use this on every case, but.
It’s again, you know, it’s still a little bit costly. So I was like, how can we come up with a product where maybe no in-person filming is required? So another video or another video product that we offer is actually called the demand impact video. And it’s basically a little brother to the trial trailer. And it’s essentially all the same editing graphics, everything you love about the trial trailer, but we do over the internet based filming.
Excuse me like zoom interviews is probably what but we use a different type of program the the help with production value But it’s essentially Zoom interviews which cuts down on the cost significantly and they they these types of videos are more reserved for like 300 thousand dollar cases a hundred thousand dollar cases when you’re just trying to tell the story and you don’t want a big like a well, not a big production crew to start with but you don’t want to
Elizabeth Larrick (13:34.685) Mm-hmm.
Michael Schwarz (13:56.183) pay for the travel and everything involved, and you just want your clients to tell their story, we can actually help kind of put the story together through online video interviews and then edit it to be the same thing that you love about the trial trailer at a much lower cost.
Elizabeth Larrick (14:13.362) How long are those videos?
Michael Schwarz (14:15.285) And they’re about the same. I would say they’re generally shorter. cause we, with the trial trailer, you get five interviews and then with the demand impact video, you get two interviews, but, then, you can add on any amount of interviews. It’s just a little extra cost, but I’ve developed this product specifically listening to lawyers who want to use videos more frequently in their cases, but they don’t have, the, the resources or funds to be able to spend.
You know, I think we’re charging 6,300 right now for our trial trailers as of today. And these are 2750, $2,750 for those. And we have found that there’s a lot more interest in that now for lower value cases that still need a story to be told.
Elizabeth Larrick (15:03.442) Sure.
Elizabeth Larrick (15:08.54) Sure, absolutely. I think that when you, so thinking in people’s minds about making a 12 minute video or even a six minute video, mean, the, the power of your editing is, overwhelming. And I say that just because I, you know, used to think, I could do my own video editing. then hours and hours go by and you just, you know, it really takes a long time. So there is definitely a craft to it. There is a professionalism that goes into
Michael Schwarz (15:42.996) Yeah, and you know on that like one of my favorite parts it’s like it’s literally it comes down to the tiniest of things like if you have two interviews right and someone is saying something and they’re like, you know, my father he can’t walk the same and he’s you know, he’s hurt because of x y and z and you have somebody else kind of adding on to that. I’ve seen cases or I’ve seen previous video work done where they would just butt those two interviews up right next to each other.
And it, can almost hear the edit where you can almost like, you know, but like just the small amount, just putting a little bit of space in between interviews and, and, know, really thinking about the pacing too, and making sure that it’s not like, jarring. those are like my favorite details, sound effects, a little bit of music. You don’t want too much music. You just want a little bit of music just to help because, we’re rhythmic, creatures.
We like rhythm and music is not, I’ve often heard that music can be, it’s like, you’re trying to make them feel something. It’s not exactly true. Music can do that if you use it wrong. What I like to use music for is to help just kind of keep the pacing going. But more importantly, when we change subjects, when we go from one, like we go from maybe liability.
Elizabeth Larrick (16:51.112) Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michael Schwarz (17:10.285) to damages or we go from damages to future concerns. Like when you go from those different sections, you have a music change. There’s like a change in energy and that way it’s like, we’re going on, you know, we’re keeping that momentum going. And so little things like that can make large amounts of difference and those are my favorite parts. Sure, and I mean, also when you think of how our brain works, when you are queuing in more than one sense, like more parts of our brains like.
Elizabeth Larrick (17:29.606) Sure, and I mean, also when you think of how our brain works, when you are queuing in more than one sense, like more parts of our brains light up and the more likely we’re going to be engaged. And like we said, keeping people’s attentions these days is like kind of the key part. We could be telling a super compelling story, but if I’m just talking at you.
Michael Schwarz (17:39.11) and the more likely we’re going to be engaged. like you said, keeping people’s attention is the part. We could be telling a super compelling story, but if I’m just talking at you, you’re going to be gone pretty quickly. if the story cues into my visuals and what I’m hearing, and then some music, which is like, it kind of plays on keeping people engaged and then also, you know.
Elizabeth Larrick (17:52.05) Like you’re gonna be gone pretty quickly, but with the story cues into my visuals and what I’m hearing and then some music, which is like, it kind of plays on keeping people engaged and then also, you
Michael Schwarz (18:05.235) It does happen to other parts of our brain that really help with persuasion, even though people say, you’re trying to make me sympathetic. Well, sure, there are definitely times where, you know, we’ve seen commercials that 100 percent, you know, you know, donate for the animals that Sarah would love. We all know. It’s like, it’s playing on me. Yeah.
Elizabeth Larrick (18:05.288) it does tap into other parts of our brain that really help with persuasion. Even though people say, oh, you’re trying to make me sympathetic. Well, sure. There are definitely times where, you we’ve seen commercials that 100%, you know, that, you know, donate for the animals that Sarah McLaughlin song, we all know that she’s like, ah, that’s playing on my sympathies. But you guys are a little more subtle than that. would say.
Michael Schwarz (18:29.193) Yeah, we like our interviews and the client story to speak for themselves. The music’s just there to help guide it, help, you know, we’re taking the viewer’s hand and walking them through their life story. And exactly, it’s just like, we actually had one of our videos called By The Defense, we actually also, you were asking me about other products we do, we also do,
Like animations sometimes, like not big animations of like recreation. Like we don’t do that. We will happily refer you somewhere else. But like little graphics. think there was, they wanted to show how the water levels would like impeach on this person’s property. Well anyways, we put this beautiful animation together, little graphic animation. It was called a cartoon by the other side. like, oh my, it’s a visual representation of what, you know.
Elizabeth Larrick (19:20.401) I’m
Michael Schwarz (19:24.333) And it was, it wasn’t ins- I was not insulted by it because like obviously they’re just grasping at straws. To me, an insult like that means I did a good job. That’s right. They need to label it something, right? Yeah. And if they’re- that means they’re grasping at straws and trying to say anything they can to keep that out. It’s like… Alright. Cartoon it is. Anyways.
Elizabeth Larrick (19:34.342) That’s right. That’s right. Because they need to label it something, right? So that, yes.
Elizabeth Larrick (19:49.192) Awesome. tell me a little bit about, let’s walk through a little bit of like, what are this, you’ve got these videos, like what are some of the problems that you’re trying to solve for lawyers with these videos? you know, I think almost all of these may solve some of the same problems, but you know, kind of walk me through that.
Michael Schwarz (19:55.319) video.
Michael Schwarz (20:02.157) I would say 99 90 % of the time what our videos are for are damages Because day in the life videos they can show the day-to-day struggles And those are great and those could be very powerful especially if someone’s an amputee or like they you can see the scars and you can clear just them walking around you can see
how their life has been affected. But sometimes a day in the life video is not good for invisible injuries. Like let’s say, like we’ve had a couple of cases where… Brain injuries. Oh yeah, sorry, I thought you were saying like my, no. Oh no, brain injuries, yeah. Brain injuries, yeah, cancer, just things you can’t see in a day in the life video. And so our solution is to…
Elizabeth Larrick (20:44.818) Brain injuries, yeah, sorry. no, no, no, injuries, yeah.
Michael Schwarz (21:00.813) interview the clients their friends and family and mix that in with day in the life video and that way whenever lawyers are saying like to the other side like Yeah, our patient or our client with brain injury is going through this this and this hearing it firsthand from those people and bringing up graphics and showing them all together and it all mixes in and by the end of it they’re like, We’re screwed. So our
Our intention and you know, one thing that I keep learning. The other part about this company that I love is that I learned something new every day. And so when talking with my clients and figuring out what their needs are, oftentimes I’ve heard over and over again that defense attorneys often take these cases without really knowing much about it. And so The company hires the defense attorney or they have one on staff. And so they’re kind of coming into this case blind. And so a video.
right off the bat can be something like, my gosh, okay. And then they can go back to their client or their client and say like, hey, this is a really damaging case. I really think you ought to settle for the X, Y, and Z. But if you’re sending a demand letter, it’s long and it has a few pictures in it. It could take a little bit longer for that process to happen. so I’ve actually heard from multiple of our clients before that
The video was a game changer right from the start. In fact, I just got an email two days ago that they’ve already settled the case and we shot it a month ago and turned in a product two weeks ago and they’ve already resolved it for like 1.25 million. And they got the policy limits, everything, and they said the video was a huge part of that. So I think the problem that we’re trying to solve is how can we convey
Elizabeth Larrick (22:45.308) That’s amazing.
Michael Schwarz (22:56.673) to these defense attorneys who come into the case not knowing much and tell our side of story. Theirs, like your side of the story in a concise, quick, powerful way that’s, I don’t want to ever use the word guaranteed, but that is most likely going to be a game changer in some way right from the start.
Elizabeth Larrick (23:21.712) Awesome. Yeah, and that’s what I going to say is, you know, it seems to me like one, it’s very effective communication because it’s quick, quick and to the point, but also you’ve got the story format, which sometimes I will tell you from a practicing lawyer perspective and also now, you know, as a, as a consultant, it is sometimes really challenging. We hear that told to us over and over again. It’s gotta be a story. It’s gotta be a story. And it’s so challenging sometimes when you sit with a case for a long time.
Michael Schwarz (23:26.231) Yeah. Yes.
Michael Schwarz (23:37.71) It is sometimes really challenging. hear that told to us over and over again. It’s got to be a story. It’s got to be a story. And it’s so challenging sometimes when you sit with a case for a long time. And that’s because again, we get these things at inception right when it happens, but it may take some time for things to develop, to file lawsuits, to do a lot of the point to get where they’re like, okay, now is when I need to get Michael in.
Elizabeth Larrick (23:49.948) And that’s because again, we get these things at inception right when it happens, but it may take some time for things to develop, to file a lawsuit, to do a lot of the point to get where they’re like, okay, now is when I need to get Michael in. And so it can be a struggle sometimes to then put the whole story together in a way that is short, which is why, like you mentioned, sometimes our demand letters are pages and pages. And again, sometimes they have to be, right? When we have adjusters that require all the key
Michael Schwarz (24:03.551) And so it can be a struggle sometimes to put the whole story together in a way that it’s short, which is why, like you mentioned, sometimes our demand letters are pages and pages. And again, it’s enough they have to be, right? When we have adjusters that require all the key language and the keywords, but then you’re able to basically take that and create this powerful video that anybody who opens that file
Elizabeth Larrick (24:19.902) language and the keywords, but then you’re able to basically take that and create this powerful video that anybody who opens that file most like what you’re going to do. You’re to go to the video first, right? Like any, we have any surveillance video, that’s show me that first before we do anything else. So, that is a great story as far as helping people get things done quickly that you gave us here about an email you got yesterday.
Michael Schwarz (24:29.517) Most likely what you’re gonna do. You’re go video first, right? Like any surveillance video. Show me that first before we do anything else. that is a great story as far as helping people get things done quickly that you gave us here about the email you got yesterday. Yeah, and on top of that, I always forget this one. Evidence preservation is an extremely important part because like we have been getting more and more videos lately where we go and film right after the, so like right when
the lawyer takes on the client, they call us, we go and do kind of just day in the life and film the interviews. And that way they have it early on. And that way, even if it takes a, you know, six months or a year to get things done and their client is mostly healed now, but they’re back to work and, they missed three months of work and it was a really terrible time for them at that time. We have all that footage that showed their struggle right then and
It’s so much easier to tell the story when it’s happening as opposed to having them go back a year earlier and say, oh, that was a really tough time for us. And then you see them walking around great and fine, and it’s a little harder to, I’m not saying it’s impossible. It’s just, it’s so much easier. So lately we’ve been getting more and more clients that will hire us as soon as they get the client knowing that we’re gonna have a video done. It might not be six months from now.
but we’re gonna get it filmed now so we have a more powerful story.
Elizabeth Larrick (26:00.402) Yeah, that’s a great idea too because jurors want to see video. They expect that we have video of the crash or the incident. They expect that there’s going to be video somewhere along the way. So that’s an, as an excellent idea to get you in early to go ahead and just start queuing in and creating a video database so that you can make that story video later on.
Michael Schwarz (26:23.185) Exactly exactly
Elizabeth Larrick (26:27.504) Awesome. Well, you gave us a little bit of an example so far, but could you mind just walking through a little bit more of an in-depth example of how a trial trailer helped a lawyer?
Michael Schwarz (26:28.045) Sure, I’ll actually give the the most public one that I have it was a yeah, so and he would be more than happy to be a reference if you have any questions, so Taylor King law in Arkansas They hired us to do a wrongful death on Somebody in, Arkadelfia. His name was Max and he was killed in a trucking head-on collision. And they had us come in and interview all of his friends all of his family. And we put together I think that one was about 12 minutes just because his life was so Impactful. He worked in prisons helping Helping with faith and and he also like went with his golfing buddies and
He mentored the person that worked for her at his insurance company. His wife ended up having cancer and she was in remission. And so now she’s scared if it’s going to come back. She’s scared she’s going to lose the house. She’s scared she’s going to lose her own business that she started. So there was a lot of, a lot of story to that. And so we, we put this together and I, I don’t want to say I don’t remember, but I believe they sent the demand letter, just filed the case.
I can’t remember if they filed the case or they didn’t file the case. It’s one of the two, but they didn’t have to do depositions. Nothing. It was just our video with the, with a few of their other materials that they sent. but the main thing was the video and they settled for eight figures. and so that one, still like brings brings a tear to my eye every time I think about it, because that family could have been drugged through them, dragged through the mud for.
you know, two, three years, four years, but right off the bat, they were like, no, this is, this is, you are at fault. We barely even had to go into liability. I think the other side was already accepting liability or they were right on the edge. But our video was just like, no, you’re, and we actually heard from the insurance adjuster on that one who said, I see these videos all the time and I’ve never seen anything like this before. Your client story was empowering and so we’re gonna give you this it was obviously wasn’t a defense attorney because they would have never said that but but i don’t know i don’t know also that one day i know there’s some smart ones out there i’m not gonna discount all them i cannot wait for the day that a defense attorney gives us a compliment that would be great oh that’s gonna be that’s gonna be like a big banner that’s gonna pop up every time that you go to the website
Elizabeth Larrick (29:03.4) It’s possible. Maybe. I know there’s some smart ones out there. I’m not going to discount all of them.
Elizabeth Larrick (29:16.86) You gotta put that on the website if it does, okay?
Elizabeth Larrick (29:25.072) Which leads me to ask, just because I know some people may be wondering, do you ever work with defense or defense or insurance companies?
Michael Schwarz (29:26.189) Sure.
Michael Schwarz (29:32.31) So that’s a great question. I have worked with a couple of defense attorneys, not on the personal injury side, but more of like, trying to think like drone footage or like we do drone site inspections, things like that. Not really, just more for evidence preservation. We’ve also done surveillance enhancements or like body cam, police body cam enhancements where we’ll take video.
gotten from a security camera or like I said police body cams and we will enhance them to either make them look a little bit better or We’ll take audio files and make dialogue appear more clear or like happen more clearly And so we do a lot of enhancements as well And that’s usually the type of work we do for defense attorneys, but we do that work all the time for plaintiff work as well I don’t really advertise to defense attorneys not because I don’t want to work with them, but just because
Elizabeth Larrick (30:26.312) Thank
Michael Schwarz (30:31.309) most of the bread and butter of what we do are obviously for plaintiff. And you have a total heart for the plaintiffs. That one. Yeah, that too. No, no. know that you do, if you go to the website, you do a little bit of real estate stuff. So you do some other type of work. So what I want to ask you about is Abandon Atlas Foundation. Tell us, there’s a little bit of a sidebar, but I it very interesting. So I think it’d be super
Elizabeth Larrick (30:35.596) And you have a total heart for the Plaintiff’s work as well. No, no, I know that you do, if you go to the website, you do a little bit of real estate stuff. You do some other type of work. So what I want to ask you about is Abandoned Atlas Foundation. Tell us, there’s a little bit of a sidebar, but I found it so interesting, so I think it’d be super fun for people to know about you. Tell us about that.
Michael Schwarz (31:01.718) Wow, okay, I love so I like to say we have two sides of our business we have the legal production side which is what we’ve been talking about and we have the Abandoned documentary side so we started a nonprofit called abandoned Atlas Foundation Because I loved in high school. I loved to explore old abandoned buildings and historic places that were really run down and creep creepy old hospitals and amusement parks that were grown up with trees. And it was really fun because you had all these historic places just completely abandoned. It used to be, I’m actually getting chills just talking about it because I love it so much. And over time, just like you being in the only space and being in an old hotel that still has beds and chandeliers and Persian rugs in it, and you’re the only one there.
and it hasn’t been stepped foot in for years. It’s just interesting. But after high school, I was like, man, I love abandoned building so much. I wonder how I can make a living off of it. So I figured out that with our documentary filmmaking, we can help shed light on some of these historic properties, starting a YouTube channel, working with developers to tell their story of how they restored an abandoned building. We also write articles.
On these historic places and they can be found at like abandoned ok.com abandoned AR like so we have now 24 states I think and we’re trying to find other photographers around those states to help document these important historic places that have that need a second chance and there are developers Everywhere that are always looking for their next restoration project. And so we’re hoping to create a huge database
of these places that have the full history, pictures of what it looks like and why it needs to be saved. We’ve worked with schools or like universities that have a design, interior design program where they’ll take old abandoned buildings and the students will draw up of how they would restore it if they had the chance looking at it. So there’s so many different things. And we’re even working on a series right now in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, the fastest shrinking city in America and and that’s been really interesting it’s gotten 3.7 million views on YouTube and so when we talk about retention rate and how to captivate audiences we do that all the time with these abandoned buildings for a YouTube audience and so you know that’s how we can kind of apply it to both you know so yeah exactly
Elizabeth Larrick (33:45.724) I love it, I love it. You’re staying in tune with what people want by, know, that is so awesome. So we will definitely leave a link to that as I know that you have a lot of passion for that.
Elizabeth Larrick (34:14.696) That is so amazing that you have translated your passion to that. And I even know you’ve written a couple of books too as well about it. Oh, that’s right. Abandon Arkansas, Abandon Oklahoma. mean, you have a passion for this. What I love is just the historical aspect of these places that have just, you know, that are a piece of our history, but they just go by the wayside because they’ve been replaced.
Michael Schwarz (34:20.192) yeah, you mean these? So we have a co- That’s right! Yeah.
Yep.
Michael Schwarz (34:34.093) but the there was one particular building. It was called the Majestic Hotel in Hot Springs and we tried to save it. We were we were on a mission. I made it actually a feature link documentary about it.
Michael Schwarz (35:04.045) In the city was trying to demolish it and we tried to save it. We ended up losing the battle, but I think it the The loss of that actually ended up saving other buildings in that town And so we’re trying to save some other buildings But anyways, the majestic was my favorite place because it was literally like you walked back in the 20s And everything was still there
Like the spas the the check-in desk that literally everything you would want in a historic hotel was still there in Almost like a museum you had to yourself and so I thought that could have been restored, but unfortunately the city had other ideas
Elizabeth Larrick (35:40.38) That’s so cool.
Well, that’s okay. You preserved it for us so that we can go if you’re interested in, we will put a link in the show notes for that as well. So if we have some lawyers who are interested in just learning a little bit more about what you do as far as filmmaking and that kind of stuff, what’s the best place someone can go to learn about you?
Michael Schwarz (35:58.573) best place someone can go to learn about you. That’s great. So if you just go to trialtrailer.com, it’ll take you to our website where you can learn it. There’s like three little categories down there. It’ll say legal impact videos, which is where our trial trailers demand impact videos would be. We have a couple of public samples that you can watch on that page. And then if you want to learn more about our historic
buildings are just interested in that. There’s a tab for that. And then you have the other category. We do so much that we just labeled everything else in other. So that would be realistic. Yeah, exactly. The two main things are the historic and the legal. Those are our two biggest things. So it’s good to have a passion. I appreciate that tie in to helping you with YouTube. So do you have a
Elizabeth Larrick (36:36.85) then that’s okay, we’re talking to trial lawyers. we, you know, I totally, yeah. So if…
Elizabeth Larrick (36:45.991) It’s good to have a passion and I appreciate that tie-in to to helping you with YouTube. So do you have a YouTube channel for the Prairie Creative Nation or Nation Creative Prairie? Let me just start over. Let me just start.
Michael Schwarz (36:55.213) It’s okay it’s Yeah, so there’s one for Prairie Nation creative And I think it’s just at Prairie Nation creative. You could also just google Prairie Nation creative our thing will come up there There’s not like a YouTube channel in the standard sense where we are we’re like, hey guys, welcome back to our YouTube they’re usually filled with samples and just
Elizabeth Larrick (37:04.136) Do you have a YouTube channel that we could look at too?
Michael Schwarz (37:23.502) random stuff we might be doing for trial lawyers associations and things like that. It’s, it’s kind of, it’s not a YouTube channel that’s meant to be a YouTube channel. It’s more of just a demo reel for some things that you can go see. It’s, it’s full of just a bunch of random stuff, but shows what we can do. Wonderful videos that align with projects that maybe- Yeah, it’s full of, exactly. I, you are so much better. I’m just like, yeah, it’s just a YouTube channel for our stuff and-
Elizabeth Larrick (37:40.804) wonderful videos that align with projects that may be random to a lawyer, but not random for you. Yeah, you’re good. we went. That’s right. That’s exactly right. No, Michael, you’ve been so lovely to have on as a guest. Is there anything I didn’t ask you that you think would be helpful for lawyers to know?
Michael Schwarz (37:52.587) You’re like, you’re my personal chat GBT, know, like, no, you mean, what?
Yeah
Michael Schwarz (38:05.569) Hmm. That’s a great question. you know, I think one of the one of the biggest reasons I do this too is because our team, get to work on one on one with your clients. and I think the, obviously this is not the only reason, but it’s interesting to be able to walk away from a shoot.
and interacting with clients and hearing them say, wow, that really felt like therapy. I’ve never actually said, like, sometimes I walk away and they’re like, I never thought I would ever say anything like that. cause I don’t show up like our team, don’t like show up with like a list of questions and we just kind of go down. Like we have kind of a pre-cong, it’s just engaging. It’s just like a conversation and we get to know them. We get to hear what their struggles are. And I don’t know. It’s just,
That’s what kind of motivates me to do what we do and then to see the final product really make a difference in someone’s life. I mean, why else do this job?
Elizabeth Larrick (39:11.336) That is an amazing note to end on. Okay, so we’re gonna have all the contact for Michael and his company in the show notes along with a couple other links if you’re interested about the Abandoned Atlas Foundation. Until next time, thank you so much and again, thank you so much Michael for joining us.
Michael Schwarz (39:11.693) That is an amazing note to end on.
Elizabeth Larrick:
The company in the show notes along with a couple other links if you’re interested about the Abandoned Atlas Foundation. Until next time, thank you so much and again thank you so much Michael for joining us.
Michael Schwarz: And thank you! You did a wonderful job. I’ve been watching your podcast and it’s been really great so I really appreciate you having me on as a guest. You do incredible work too so don’t discount that. Use her for your focus groups.
In this episode, Elizabeth tackles the challenge of capturing and maintaining attention in legal settings, emphasizing the importance of the critical eight-second window to engage audiences like judges, mediators, opposing counsel, and juries. Discover methods to simplify complex legal jargon and prevent cognitive overload, ensuring clarity in your arguments.
Elizabeth dives into crafting compelling trial strategies, focusing on the power of visual comparisons and thematic development in opening statements to effectively counter defense narratives. Whether it’s contrasting visuals or structuring arguments to reinforce your points, these techniques will elevate your trial preparations.
In this episode, you will hear:
Mastering attention in legal settings using the critical 8 second rule
Simplifying complex legal jargon to avoid cognitive overload
Utilizing visual comparisons and thematic development in trial strategies
Integrating visuals with verbal communication for enhanced audience engagement
Follow and Review:
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Supporting Resources:
Do you have an upcoming trial and want help writing your opening statement? Book a free call with Elizabeth to see how she can help.
Episode Transcript
Welcome to the podcast Trial Lawyer Prep. I’m your host, Elizabeth Larrick, trial lawyer turned consultant here to help lawyers clearly communicate their cases in order to win.
In today’s episode, we will directly speak to how we can hold people’s attention and not lose it. We have eight seconds to grab people’s attention. We already know as lawyers that attention spans are getting smaller and smaller. It really doesn’t matter who your audience is. It could be a judge, a mediator, opposing counsel, or a jury. Either way, we have eight seconds. If we lose that eight seconds, it is costing you verdicts, winning, possibly even settling cases quicker.
This episode, we want to talk about how we can work through that eight seconds to grab attention, but also to avoid cognitive overload, giving people too much at one time. I want to express all the things that we have found in doing focus group research, going to trials, and getting feedback to understand what worked. And of course, we know when it doesn’t.
So let’s talk about our eight seconds. There’s so much research that goes into our attention spans. Tons of marketing companies pour millions of dollars into figuring out what is the attention span. And right now, most current research I would say is eight seconds. What we really want to know is how to get that eight seconds down and keep their attention. We’ve seen this before. If you’ve watched any of the CLEs that talk about opening statements, if you’ve read any of the fabulous books that are out there about setting up and structuring opening statements, you will know that the instruction, the request is to start with a hook. Start with a simple attention-grabbing sentence. This case is about boom, boom, boom, starting with a statistic because we want to grab that attention, right? Get those brains going.
The other thing that we want to make sure that we do is then be able to keep that attention without overloading or overwhelming our brains. What happens is we unknowingly provide a bulk of information that overwhelms our brains and they end up being turned off. When you’re speaking, you’re giving folks a good rundown of the case, maybe you’re rundown the evidence, maybe the standard that applies. When you do that, if a juror or anyone in your audience hears a word that they don’t understand or maybe a phrase, or maybe it’s just how you’ve actually phrased the sentence, their whole brain will stop processing anything else and direct all the energy into figuring out that one word, that one phrase, or trying to restructure the sentence to figure out what you’re saying. Meanwhile, you’re still talking and delivering information and they’re not receiving any of what happens then? Well, maybe they keep trying to listen. Maybe they go to something else and think about other things. Maybe they think about what they’re going to have for lunch. Either way, they’re not listening to you. Either fill in the gap with what they think you said, taking a guess, or they just sit back and just resolve that they’re just not gonna understand. It makes no difference to them. And they’re just not gonna pay attention. I don’t want that for you. I want you to be able to grab people’s attention. I want you to work through cognitive overload.
And so we’ve got three plus a bonus that we’re gonna talk about here today that you can work through and these are simple things, there are three very simple things we can do with any presentation you’re about to give. So think about opening statement, think about mediation, think about an upcoming hearing that you have. All three of these things can be applied to any presentation you’re about to give so that you don’t lose someone’s attention or you don’t sit in their brain on a scavenger hunt trying to figure out a word or a phrase that you use. And again, these are time-tested results, done focus groups on these topics, read books on these topics, and again, taking these things to trial to test it out.
Number one is linguistics or language. We are really known for using some large legal terms, medical terms that really can stump jurors. I see this very often in focus groups and the easy thing to do is just pair. I know that we have to use certain languages in certain cases. We have to do it. The law requires us. I understand that. I’m not trying to fight against that, but what I want you to do is pair it. And you heard me already do that. When I said linguistic, I paired it with language. So I want to give you a couple other examples that have gone through focus groups. And we have heard directly, right, that these are things that need to be paired. So medical malpractice cases are great examples of this. And we once had a medical malpractice unfortunately the person developed some eschar. Well, that’s dead tissue. Now the lawyer used this word no less than 10 times.
And that was the first question we got when I asked for what do you think? What is your impression from this information? They were like, I don’t know what that word is. Even though, right, he may have explained it, because he kept using it, the brain kept getting stumped again and again and again. And so all we did was very simply reduce the amount of times you use the word, but also we just paired it together. We gave it a little sidecar, right? Like, eschar, dead tissue. It just goes right along together, so they pair together. Another example here recently was uncontrolled intersection. Now that stumped me because I don’t know really what that means.
So we paired it together with an intersection without any signal or sign with how to direct traffic. Now that’s a long pairing, it was a key element in the facts of the case. So I didn’t want to lose the people in the focus group early. And then I paired it with a I said uncontrolled intersection showed a picture and then I paired it. An intersection without signs or signals that direct traffic. Boom, simple, right? Super simple. Again, these are simple tips, but we tend to overlook them. So number one, think language when you’re walking through your presentation. How can I pair my language or change the language, remove it altogether to make it very simple?
Number two is structure. Number one, let’s just have it. A lot of times we put together arguments, we put together presentations, and we don’t really think through the structure. So this is where we’ve talked about rules of three. We’re going to say it again, rules of three, working memory in our brain can hold three to five things. So if we already say, I’m going to walk through three can handle three. That’s easy. But when you can structure it and a lot of times people say, well, but what if this particular case m is going to have six different questions in the verdict form. Or what if the law has five elements? Okay, so we’re getting into the nitty-gritty here. When we wanna structure things in a three, we wanna go to that 30,000 foot view and try to get broad and then group it together. This will also really help you cut the fluff. Right, so if we’re making our strongest argument, not everything can go in there. it’s either fit in or it’s not. It’s not gonna be important. But not every detail’s important when we give our first presentation, right? Thinking about you’ve written a motion. You’ve given pages of information over to the judge and now you’re going to stand up and give your argument. You don’t need to hit everything in that motion. You need to hit the strongest things. You’d have strong structure and hit the top thing. And the same thing happens with an opening statement, You can’t give them everything in the opening statement. It’s overwhelming. You will lose them. So you want to make sure you structure it down to those three different pieces, right? Rule of threes. and then everything else can be saved for gonna actually give it more emphasis by targeting it later in cross exam or direct exam, okay?
Alright, next one is cognitive space. So this just means that when we look at our sentence structure, we make it simple. We don’t have long, dense sentences with lots of information. We take those apart and we give simple sentences that are very short and sweet and to the point. Alright, so if you’re gonna talk about a car crash. m on July 6th, it was a stormy, rainy night when the car was going eastbound on 35 with slick rain on bald tires. That’s kind of a lot. You really wanna break that down. There are lots of pieces in there that are helpful to the story, so just take it back, And realize what’s really important here. Is July 6th important to what the jury needs to hear? Not likely. So what is it? It’s the weather, it’s the bald tires, maybe it’s you’re on a highway. How many lanes are on that you’re just gonna break that down and when you do that, you’re giving space for the brain to process. Instead of trying to cram six things in a one sentence, we’re spacing it out. also make it easier on your audience who is listening.
Alright. Last bonus point I will say, and we will do an entire episode on this because I know how important it is to have a visual presentation that matches what you’re saying. So I talked a little bit about this. earlier we talked about showing a picture of an uncontrolled intersection while pairing it with what it we in order to grab attention and keep attention, we want to use visuals that convey our message but not duplicate our message. So many times when we’re using PowerPoint, we’ll just put the words on the screen and then we’ll read them. This actually compounds the difficulty of working memory. Makes it difficult. So what you wanna do is you wanna be able to pair your message, right, visually with what you’re saying. You don’t want it to be a duplication. And when you do that, people will pay more attention. Just typically, people identify as visual learners, even though learning styles have been debunked, that’s okay. If we wanna speak to how each person learns in your audience. I mean, if you have a jury, you have probably many different styles or many different ways that people want to learn. So you’re gonna hit both of them. You’re gonna have the visual, you’re gonna have the verbal, and that’s gonna key in on keeping our eight seconds, keeping things moving. keeping people’s attention, but also allowing some space. Because as you put together your presentation, you’re gonna wanna follow the same rules. If you put a word on the screen, maybe you’re gonna verbally pair it with a simpler term. You’re gonna use simple structure on your PowerPoint slides, right? Not dense wording. And then of course, you also wanna make sure when you structure it, It follows with what you’re saying.
Wanna talk a little bit about an example here recently, and we just had. So I worked with a lawyer, we’d done three short virtual focus groups on the same case over a period of a year as they got ready to prepare for trial, to prepare for mediation. tested many different things. We parts of the story, pieces of the defense arguments, and then it was getting ready for trial. So we came together for what I would call a strategy session. We each did our own homework, looking at the past focus groups. We wanted to look at what is working, what is not working, and how do we need to structure this opening statement.
So thinking through our eight seconds, we want to know what had to go first, right? Primacy. would be the hook that we would need to do? And then we also looked at what was working for the defense. and what was being tapped into. And again, we’re obviously running these focus groups and playing the defense. The point of view that was being tapped into was significantly defense. And so they were tapping into the point of view of the juror as a homeowner. And this particular case involves an knew, oh okay, we need to get ahead of this. This may need to be the thing you do very first, the primacy. We have to set this out straight for them and in a very simple way.
And so that was what we worked on. The rules that a business must follow to keep their place safe and how it’s different than a homeowner. we needed to think about how to educate them very simply, but then also even pair that with questions and jury selection. in that hour that we spent together, we really just worked on what would be first had to grab their attention, but also set things straight in a very simple language, very simple structure, And then ultimately had to make it very have this eight seconds. And through that visual comparison. Even if our slide had a business building versus a home, that would still be able to bring up different things in their mind on top of what the lawyer would have been saying an opening statement. So we were able to get a lot of work done on our themes, on our structure, and how to get out in front of oh the point of view that the defense was using to win the case.
Alright, I hope that this episode was helpful to you. If you are preparing for trial and you want to review your opening statement, maybe look at injecting case themes, I can help with that. There’ll be a link in the show a free consultation call if you’re interested. Alright, thank you so much for tuning in to this episode and until next time, thank you.
Elizabeth explores the application of brain science in witness preparation, offering trial lawyers strategies to enhance deposition prep. This episode focuses on leveraging the limbic system and amygdala to reduce stress and improve memory retention, moving away from fear-based tactics. Elizabeth discusses the importance of engaging clients by addressing their concerns and shares methods to counteract the forgetting curve through repetition and structured sessions.
Elevate your practice with these insights for building a strong foundation in witness preparation. Elizabeth highlights the significance of understanding and applying brain science to transform the way trial lawyers approach witness prep. By addressing the emotional and cognitive needs of clients, lawyers can create a more supportive and effective preparation process. The episode emphasizes the benefits of using technology and structured repetition to ensure that clients are well-prepared, confident, and able to retain crucial information.
In this episode, you will hear:
Transforming witness preparation using brain science techniques
Avoiding fear-based tactics to enhance client memory retention
Importance of repetition to combat the forgetting curve
Empowering clients with confidence and clarity through tailored strategies
Explore the potential of focus groups to elevate your mediation success with insights from Elizabeth Larrick. This episode is a must-listen for trial lawyers looking to refine their negotiation strategies. Elizabeth shares the strategic advantages of conducting focus groups two to three months before mediation to influence insurance company figures effectively. She distinguishes between focus groups for trial preparation and those tailored specifically for mediation, offering techniques to maintain confidentiality while utilizing focus group findings to drive better settlements.
Elizabeth emphasizes the critical importance of early preparation, providing ample time to share insights with the opposing side ahead of mediation. This proactive approach enhances negotiation effectiveness and informs decision-making.
In this episode, you will hear:
Strategic use of focus groups to enhance mediation success
Importance of conducting focus groups 2-3 months prior to mediation
Differentiating focus groups for mediation from those for trial preparation
Techniques for maintaining confidentiality while sharing focus group insights
Leveraging mediators to communicate focus group findings effectively
Supporting Resources:
In case you missed it, here is Episode 139 that talks about using focus groups in discovery. Listen here.
Curious about doing a focus group for your upcoming mediation? Schedule a free call to see how Elizabeth can help.
In this episode of Trial Lawyer Prep, Elizabeth Larrick discusses the importance of focus groups for lawyers and dispels the myth that a psychology degree is necessary to conduct them. She outlines three key steps to running effective focus groups: having a clear goal, making a plan, and doing a test run of the presentation. Larrick emphasizes the need for lawyers to prepare adequately to avoid confusion and ensure they receive valuable feedback. She also addresses the issue of bias and encourages lawyers to seek help if they feel too biased to run a focus group themselves.
Takeaways:
You don’t need a psych degree to run a focus group.
Having a clear goal is essential for focus groups.
Planning is crucial to avoid confusion during focus groups.
A test run can help identify issues in your presentation.
Lawyers often talk too much and don’t listen enough.
Check out my detailed blog about planning and moderating your own virtual focus groups.
Episode Transcript
Elizabeth Larrick (00:25.016) Are you putting barriers to starting your own focus groups? Maybe you think you need to be qualified or have some kind of certification before you start? Well tune into this episode and we’ll give you the answer so you can get going right away.
Hello and welcome to Trial Lawyer Prep. I’m your host, Elizabeth Larrick, and we are here to talk all things preparation. That would be trial prep, trial strategy, focus groups, witness prep, persuasion, courtroom tactics. We are glad that you are here. In this episode, I wanna bust down a myth that you don’t need to have a psych degree in order to run your own focus groups.
Because I want every lawyer to be running their own focus groups to make better decisions in their cases. If we run focus groups, we can have better direction for where we’re taking our claims. We can have a better understanding of how jurors think about things, because guess what? Lawyers don’t think the same way as jurors. And also I want you to have the confidence that people gain from hearing others talk about their case. So.
I don’t want you to place any extra barriers in your way. And what I have heard many times talking to folks, talking to lawyers about doing focus groups and really specifically, it’s a question people always ask me. Well, do you have a psych degree? I don’t, but I do have training and that’s what we talk about a lot here to be able to do focus groups in a way.
So I want to use this episode to give you the three things that you can do right now so you can get over that hurdle that you don’t necessarily have a psych degree, you don’t have any special thoughts or training. Listen, the purpose of a focus group is to get an outside perspective. So there are three things you can do before you begin to help you prepare yourself for a positive and successful focus group.
Elizabeth Larrick (02:32.008) So number one, you want to make sure you have a clear goal in mind. Many times lawyers come to me and they’re not really sure the case has several different issues, but we always want to be able to prioritize what is the thing you need to know right now. What is the decision that you’re having to make right now? Maybe it’s about settlement. Maybe it’s about moving towards spending extra money on experts or trial, or maybe it’s about taking more depositions.
or pursuing a specific kind of claim, either way, you wanna be able to have a goal in mind. I want feedback on this issue. I want feedback on that issue. When we run virtual focus groups, we look at the collective amount of time that we have, and I tell lawyers point blank, you only have time for one issue, or you only have time for two issues. Or if you’re really just looking for general feedback, like that’s fine, but.
I think it’s much better if we have a goal in mind. Because once we have our goal in mind, that will then set us up to be able to prepare and plan better. Which is number two thing that you need when you’re starting to do focus groups, or if you’re already doing focus groups, having number one, a clear goal, and number two, having a plan. Now, I see too many lawyers come in and just completely wing it. And let me tell ya.
It is not helpful because what ends up happening is you, the lawyer, talk way more than our participants. You end up bombarding them with tons of information. Sometimes it’s organized, sometimes it’s not, but really you spend most of the time just talking and not listening. And so a plan can really help us understand we have our goal in mind. Let’s take an example. Let’s say it’s liability. Let’s say it’s a red light.
he said, she said, she said, he said kind of situation. And you really need to figure out who are they gonna believe. Okay, well that’s our one, our goal is to figure out what are we do on liability here with our swearing match? And so we have a plan. Do we approach it neutrally? Do we approach it from one side only? Do we approach it from two sides? Having that plan and knowing, okay, here’s where we’re gonna go. We’re gonna be neutral, Elizabeth, okay.
Elizabeth Larrick (04:54.654) So let’s get all of our facts and let’s put them in a neutral light. Okay, now that may be difficult for you to do and that’s okay, but what we wanna make sure that we’re doing is we have a plan with how much information we’re gonna give, what we’re gonna stay away from, which is super important, because many times people wanna add in that extra fact that maybe it’s not even allowed into evidence. My example in a liability case is people always wanna talk about in a regular.
car crash case, people not having a driver’s license, which is not admissible in Texas. And it, I’ve seen it happen and it just tanks the whole focus group, okay, which means it makes it unreliable feedback. You always wanna have reliable feedback. And if you have got a clear goal in mind, you’re making a plan, and then finally, before you even get started, you do a test run of your presentation.
So I want to give a good example here where I had a younger lawyer who’s coming to me. He’s got two hours to go He’s got a pretty complicated electrocution case With a couple of holes in the facts. They’re just not ever able to fill there were no eyewitnesses And so he creates PowerPoint we walk through it together And I give some ideas I tell him hands a little too much information and to go fix a few of these things Well, he comes to the focus group and it was very clear he had not run through the PowerPoint before he turned on the Zoom to join with people because he just rambled and rambled and went on. And unfortunately, it became very confusing for the group. And so it was difficult to get good feedback when people are just confused. It’s kind of a, I’ll just say it, it’s a cop out. Like, I don’t understand, I’m confused. Or the other one is, well, I have so many more questions.
I wouldn’t be able to answer how I feel or what I think about it because I have so many questions, right? I don’t want that to happen to you, okay? Psych degree or not, that’s just kinda what happens when we get into a place where we’re not really sure. We just end up talking a little more, lawyer or not, it just happens. So, I want you to be able to do a test run before you jump into that focus group because we don’t wanna miss anything.
Elizabeth Larrick (07:10.562) but also we wanna make sure that we fix anything in our presentation that may need to be fixed. There are plenty of times where I put together a PowerPoint, get going, and I do a test run and I realize, whoa, all these animations are off or there is no animation so they can’t see everything. A test run is a great way and it doesn’t take long. You could just go through your slide deck and then you’re done, right? Just print out your materials and read through it. That is what I mean by a test run. It doesn’t have to be difficult. But what you will find is, I could say that
with a little more clarity. I can see that we need to add a little more information here or look at me, I’m adding in an extra issue that I may be worried about that we didn’t put into our plan. So it’s really helpful also to avoid wasting any time in a focus group. If you have all of your visuals ready, then you don’t waste any time going to find them or making sure that they work. I’ve seen this happen, unfortunately, too many times where people say, well, I have this picture I want to show you.
but they don’t have it ready. Or they realize, oh wait, I have another one I wanna show you and they have to go find it, right? Well, all that time that they’re just sitting there staring, right? That’s time that we’re not getting feedback. So I really want you to do a test run to avoid wasting time. So we’ve got our three things that you need to make you feel a little better, get over that barrier of starting a focused group. Number one, have a clear goal in mind. Number two, make a plan. And number three, do a test run.
Okay, now that’s all gonna get you over that hump of getting that thing started and then that feedback is just gonna roll on in. And from there, it’s just making sure that we don’t pull ourselves back into a place of arguing with others. And that’s a real common pitfall I wanna talk about. Many lawyers come to me and they say, oh, I’m fine, I know this case forward and backwards, I don’t really need to plan, it’ll just come out naturally. Well, what ends up happening is again, you bombard them with so many facts.
and there’s not a lot of clear organization, because your brain’s jumping around to all the different issues that ends up getting so confusing that you don’t really get any good feedback. I also remind people, you would never walk into court without having a clear plan, a clear opening statement, even at a minimum, an outline, because you don’t have an unlimited amount of time.
Elizabeth Larrick (09:32.782) to talk to these jurors so you always have a plan in mind, an organization. So why would you walk in a folks group without a plan? Okay, the other thing that I hear or a common pitfall that I see is assuming people are a natural presenter. Oh, it’s very natural for me. I don’t really need to do a test run. Again, we run into rambling and also a little bit of a hitch in the get up. If there is a problem, then a little bit of panic sets in.
And again, I don’t want you to worry about wasting the time when you could be getting feedback. So having that test run solves that whole problem. So you may be thinking though, Elizabeth, if we do all of this, what if you realized, you know what, at the end of the day, I am just way too biased. Like I’m gonna end up arguing with somebody or I’m so entrenched that I’m gonna start asking questions like.
Well, what if you knew about this fact? Or what if hypothetically this thing happened, right? All those questions are you putting your finger on the scale and weighing them down to bias it. So that is an excellent question to be asking yourself, is am I too biased to even do a focus group? Because, again, the purpose is to find the information, not argue with the people. You don’t always wanna win, sometimes you just need to do the research.
then you can always find somebody else in your office that can run the focus group or you can hire someone. I don’t know if you know this, but this is something that I do. But also I help people, for example, in some of my focus groups, I help people be able to get through that bias and teach themselves how to get information without revealing their bias. Again, this is where it goes back to our whole theme here. You don’t need a psychic degree to run a focus group. You need a plan.
You need a clear goal and you need to do a test run just to double check yourself and make sure that you’re giving them all the information in the correct way. All right, if you are curious about more information on planning and preparing for a focus group, I’ve written an in-detail blog that I will put a link to in the show notes if you want more information. And of course, naturally, if you need more help,
Elizabeth Larrick (11:48.14) Don’t hesitate to book a call with me about focus groups. I’m always here and generous with my time to make sure that you can get what you need from a focus group. All right, I hope this episode was helpful and until next time, thank you.
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In this episode, Elizabeth Larrick discusses the importance of using Zoom focus groups before discovery in trial preparation. She outlines the benefits of these focus groups, including setting the right direction for a case, avoiding wasted time on irrelevant claims, and utilizing feedback effectively. Through a case study involving a school district, she illustrates how focus groups can help identify critical information and prevent surprises during the discovery process.
Takeaways
Using Zoom focus groups can set the right direction for a case.
Focus groups help avoid wasting time on irrelevant claims.
Even minimal information can yield valuable feedback from focus groups.
Feedback from focus groups can be reused throughout the case.
Follow and Review:
We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.
Supporting Resources:
Have questions about Zoom Focus groups? Set up a Free call with Elizabeth here.
Guest Ben Gideon explores the complex world of risk assessment in trial law. Despite their bold reputations, trial lawyers often lean towards risk-averse strategies, favoring settlements over trials. Ben reflects on his recent trial loss to analyze cognitive biases in decision-making and emphasizes the importance of embracing risk to secure significant verdicts.
Drawing parallels between trial law and high-stakes poker, Ben discusses how both fields rely on probabilistic thinking and expected value calculations. He shares strategies for managing risk across multiple cases, similar to a poker player handling various hands, and highlights the differing risk levels faced by lawyers and their clients.
In this episode, you will hear:
Insights from Ben Gideon on risk assessment in trial law
Exploration of trial lawyers’ risk-averse tendencies and the impact of cognitive biases
Importance of data-driven approaches and probabilistic thinking in legal decision-making
Balancing client emotions and cognitive biases during negotiations and mediations
Follow and Review:
We’d love for you to follow us if you haven’t yet. Click that purple ‘+’ in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.
