Witness Prep Role Play with Christopher Russo
Christopher Russo, a seasoned lawyer with 32 years of experience, will be joining us to share his insights on this aspect of client preparation and role play. Roleplaying is a versatile technique that can be employed to prepare for challenging scenarios, including cross-examinations and depositions. As trial lawyers, it is an effective tool that can improve our preparedness to handle complex legal situations.
Today’s discussion will focus on roleplay’s application in getting clients ready for testimony, whether it is for a deposition or trial.
During our session, we will delve into the common stumbling blocks that can arise during a deposition and explore techniques to avoid them. We will also discuss how gauging the personalities of our clients can aid in choosing the most effective roleplaying techniques.
Our conversation centers on the value of roleplaying with clients, the importance of taking breaks during the process, and the benefits of roleplaying the deposition. By examining these topics, we hope to establish a more comprehensive understanding of how roleplaying can be utilized to enhance client confidence and performance in the courtroom.
In this episode, you will hear:
- The common stumbling blocks in the deposition
- Gauging the personalities of your patients
- The value of roleplaying with a client
- Roleplaying the deposition
- The importance of taking breaks
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Supporting Resources:
If you have a question or a case in Rhode Island, please reach out to Christopher crusso@kirshenbaumri.com
Christopher L. Russo | Managing Partner
Kirshenbaum & Kirshenbaum
Attorneys at Law, Inc.
117 Metro Center Blvd. Suite 1003
Warwick, RI 02886
Office: 401.946.3200 | Fax: 401.943.8097
Christopher concentrates his practice in representing personal injury plaintiffs. He handles all matters assisting people injured in car collisions, slip and fall, bicycle and motorcycle accidents. He has handled many cases involving tractor trailer collisions. These cases require an attorney with knowledge of the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations and an intimate understanding of the dangers these vehicles pose to the unsuspecting victims.
Christopher also handles a variety of criminal defense matters. He has handles District Court misdemeanor offenses, Superior Court felony matters as well as Federal District Court matters.
Episode Credits:
If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.
Episode Transcript:
Elizabeth Larrick: Hi there, it’s Elizabeth. I wanted to step in very briefly before we begin our conversation with Christopher Russo to give a little bit of background on Christopher and how we met.
Christopher is a personal injury lawyer in Rhode Island, and we actually met several years back while I was [00:01:00] teaching a witness prep course. After that, we kept in touch. Christopher and I like to trade ideas about. Witness prep, and especially if we get stuck, I’ll get a call from Christopher or I’ll reach out to him and say, Hey, do you have any ideas on how to handle this?
Or Hey, what’s a new question you’ve been asking clients when they get stuck on this particular thing? And we also role play. So Christopher and I have a really good conversation about witness prep and role play. And I want to share that with you guys in the podcast. So let’s get to it. Hello, and welcome back to the podcast.
I am always excited to have a guest, but today I have a good friend of mine. Christopher Russo is joining us. Hello and welcome to the podcast, Christopher.
Christopher Russo: Hello. Thank you for inviting me.
Elizabeth Larrick: We are going to tackle a topic role play in a client witness prep. Now I brought Christopher on because he is on my short list.
When I need somebody to grill a client and they need a fresh face, I say, Hey, Christopher, we jump on the [00:02:00] zoom and grill this person for me. So that’s why I thought he would be a wonderful guest to come. Talk about preparing clients and this role play aspect of everything. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today.
Now I will say on this podcast specifically, you’ve also talked about using role play as a way to get ready for a cross exam. It’s a way to get ready for taking a difficult position. Role play can be used in many different areas. I think it’s a great tool. for getting us ready as lawyers. And so we’re talking about today in the frame of getting the client ready for testimony, either as deposition or even for trial.
So that’s kind of where our frame is here today, but let me throw it to you first, Christopher, let’s talk a little bit, just generally, what do you do for client witness prep?
Christopher Russo: Actually, I think in answering that, I always like to share how I was first taught because I’ve been practicing now for 32 years and God rest their souls, my former partners and mentors, they really taught me more like you’re supposed to tell your client what to answer.
[00:03:00] And as the Jewish phrase used to be, come up with the mitzah, you have to come up with a story for them. And I’m like, Oh, okay. That didn’t really work. And so I have really embraced this concept through you as you were my teacher, the three step process and meeting with them over several occasions and not jamming it in all one session.
Because just like anything else we learn. If you just drink from the fire hose in an hour and expect them to show up the next day, or God forbid, lawyers who prepare them the morning of, and you expect them to digest everything and show up in an hour and perform, that’s amazing. Amazingly stupid, I would say.
So yeah, definitely over several sessions. I even have sent them some questions by email. A lot of clients like to do email, like to start the thought process going and let’s show up with your answers and go [00:04:00] over it. One of my favorites is really trying to find the guilt and their truths. Because getting, I realize I’m short circuiting this, but that whole process of getting to their truths, it’s so much more powerful.
When you pull it out of them and they hear it is their own words, as opposed to you just feeding it to them. It really ingrains it so much better.
Elizabeth Larrick: Absolutely. And thinking about old way, right? And this way that we’re talking about, sometimes people want to call these truths, the case themes. Would you agree with that or disagree?
Christopher Russo: I think depending on what the truth is, it very well can be a case theme, but I don’t go by the one shoe fits all. No, not every single truth is going to be a case theme. Some of them can be powerful and I do like to use them. I don’t ever like to say that to the client. I don’t know why I don’t want it because I feel like some of the lawyer trial process we can keep to [00:05:00] ourselves, the better.
Okay, I’ll tell one story that is not from me, and I’ll even tell you who it was if you want to know in the end. Because it’s been a powerful idea of a lawyer not sharing something with a client. It’s a very famous lawyer in Rhode Island who is trying this very large, I believe it was a medical malpractice case.
And the concept is this, it was a young boy who was left paralyzed. Picture an 18 year old boy paralyzed from the waist down. And just thinking in my mind’s eye, how many lawyers would have the foresight to not share some of the stuff I’m about to tell you and how it all played out. So fast forward trial, the plaintiff was not in the courtroom at all times.
Plaintiff expert on the stand. Mr. Expert, what’s a plaintiff’s condition? He’s paralyzed. And what’s his future? His future is paralyzed. There is no hope. There’s no changing, no nothing. Okay. Next witness was the plaintiff. [00:06:00] Puts a plaintiff on the stand. And I still get goosebumps when I tell this. Plaintiff on the stand, he asked him at one point, Hey Johnny, what do you see your future?
Oh, I’m going to walk again. I’m going to run. And as the story was told, there wasn’t a dry eye in the jury because he had the foresight to leave that child’s hope. intact. And I’ve often thought of that story thinking many lawyers that I’ve met in the past would have said to the client, No, you can’t say that you’re going to contradict our expert and would have totally presented a completely different witness, probably more a depressed witness, which some Oh my God, I’m You could, you can imagine the boy, right?
He would have been depressed. He would have come across that way. He would have came across like Eeyore, but this lawyer had the foresight to say, no, I want this excited child so that they can see what they took from him. [00:07:00] And I will say it was God rest his soul, brilliant lawyer, Lenny Decoff from Decoff and Decoff, who had that brilliant foresight to think like that.
And I think of that story a lot of times when I think of my trial prep with my client to what they might be saying, and in line with what you said, why, hey, maybe I would like to, maybe I might not call it a theme, but I think of that story when you asked me that question, and I might not share with them that I want to do this.
Because I don’t want them knowing what the prize at the end, so to speak, is. And sometimes, let’s face it, when people anticipate something, I think it affects how they’ll say it the next time. Make sense?
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. And I think from a perspective of What is more powerful? Truth is always going to be more powerful and themes.
That’s just strategy when you hear it. And I hear that’s just fluff. That’s strategy. The truth is what they need, right? That’s what’s going to, and the [00:08:00] truth for them may be a hundred, you know, maybe exactly what they need to be talking about. And the case theme could be completely different. My example would be.
Christopher and I are edge reptile followers and the teachings that the theme is always going to be putting the defendant’s conduct and putting the defendant first and things. So thinking about trial strategy, but also I always feel like strategy is that is well above being beyond the world that our clients have any idea about.
And they’re just trying to get through this deposition at this time. And I’ve talked about in this podcast before preparation is. Just this very serious time for this one thing, focusing as much as you can, as the lawyer and helping the client do the same. And if we bring in other things, Oh, this is the theme.
And Oh, this is the, now your client may need information to help them understand who will testify on this and who, you know, that way they don’t feel like that they have to do that. But most of them like, Hey, when we’re prepping [00:09:00] nose down to the grindstone, we’re doing our prep work just with you. We’re not talking about focus groups.
Of course, we’re talking about. Hey, here’s how folks could folks could perceive you. But let me ask you, since I’m the one interviewing you here, what do you find are common stumbling blocks for clients and depositions and think also about with the dynamic now. Post COVID most of client depositions are still zoom wise.
They are here for us here in Texas, and I assume that’s probably the same for you. So keeping that in mind, what are some common stumbling blocks you’re seeing?
Christopher Russo: Sure. Some of the common stumbling blocks I find is, I’ll give you one example that I had, Where this was, uh, was still pre COVID, but they get too stuck on a particular way, a question must be asked.
And the example I give, which I was stunned when this happened, it was a trip and fall case. And I’m sure we’ve all had triple [00:10:00] fall cases, but you know, they’re going to ask you to put on this drawing where you fell or on a picture or something, and so I prepped with her and I pulled out some of the pictures that I had.
And I said, you’re going to have to do it. Let’s practice it. And she did. So fast forward to deposition. And there was a picture that I used that had to be sent to the city to put them on notice of the claim. And the attorney pulled that out. And I’ll admit it wasn’t a great copy, but it was a black and white copy.
And the attorney asked the client, can you show me on this picture where you fell? No, I cannot. And I’m, I’ve never, I’m not a good poker player, but I got a good poker face. So I just sat there silent and we took a break and I called her out. And I’m like, what the hell happened? Oh, that was a bad picture. I couldn’t see it.
That’s didn’t say that. Don’t you say I can’t show you. [00:11:00] You can clearly see where you fell. And that’s one example where they get too pigeonholed. So I try to be more general on the topics so that they don’t get stuck with this particular phraseology of a question. One of the other examples was I do try and prep some of the clients on the lawyers personalities.
This one client I’m thinking of that if I could say this attorney has a reputation for, I’m not going to use foul language, but if I could I would. All right. We’ve all had those. And so I tried to prep her for that and not give too many nasty examples but and I. Second guess myself now because I didn’t meet with this person three times I met with this person like five or six times because she needed that extra time and we did some role play, and we’ll get into that later that I did it where I think in hindsight I shouldn’t have been the one 10 minutes into the [00:12:00] deposition.
She’s going sideways, and I’m not. Not understanding why and
Elizabeth Larrick: going
Christopher Russo: sideways, meaning he’s answering, he’s giving her, in my opinion, softball questions and she’s just answering poorly. So I asked for a break and I take her into the room and I’m like calling an audible here. What’s going on? He’s being an a hole.
He is one, but he’s not today. I feel like being kind of nice to you today because you’re being nasty to him for no reason. I think you’re gonna be careful with that too going forward. Maybe not so much get into the personalities and just stick to the plan, if that makes sense.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. And I think sometimes people, one of the summer blocks that I see pretty often is people are just, they’re heated.
Like they’re already very upset about the situation’s taking too long. And there are things they’ve had to do that are inconvenient and [00:13:00] frustrating and this should all be done. So they come in very, already upset and geared up to break them off a piece. And, and so sometimes that’s the blackboard’s like, Hey, yeah, we may have some tough questions.
You may get questions that have certain tone, or this person is known for this style of question. But at the end of the day, what’s going on here? Like how do we figure out and move through some of this like anger? Because if you go in there, like you said, and you just start ripping it up from right from the start, it’s like the lawyer, the person on their side is going to be like, I’m going to give it right back to you.
Or they’re saying, this is great for me. I’m still in. Let
Christopher Russo: me, let me throw one out to you in your podcast. Let’s see if you guys have an answer for me. And I’m also going to give you some good Italian legalese. So what do you do for a client like this? And the Italian slang is the term of art we use is What a cat get on is is somebody who can’t shut up another phrase.
We use diarrhea of the mouth. That’s [00:14:00] cat get on. So what do you do for the client that happened recently? We’re prepped them. Look, answer the question. He had it in his head. They need to know something. And come hella high water, I’m thinking the question wasn’t being asked, wasn’t all of a sudden the attorney asked a question about A.
He just stuck a square peg in a round hole Z. It was that thing that in his mind they had to hear. And afterwards we broke, I’m like, What are you doing? They needed to hear that. No, no, no. You needed to say it. They didn’t need to hear it. What are you doing? A client like that? I don’t know.
Elizabeth Larrick: Sometimes I gauge personalities and I always ask them, even if I have a really in gregarious person, or if I have a very quiet person, I always say, Hey, this is that time, right?
This is that one place where they’re going to ask you questions and you can [00:15:00] explain. And so what is it you want them to know? And on the flip side, we always ask it, what is it that you do not want them to know? So we always, whether it goes both ways. And the other thing is I always say like, Hey, listen, if there’s something that’s super important to you and you really want to talk about it and they don’t ask you, I’ll ask you.
Okay. So just hang out with me. I have a chance to ask questions and I know it’s important to you. Will you trust me that I will ask you that question so that, you know, that way they feel like, oh, okay, here’s the safety net. And that way. Now I get to solve the question.
Christopher Russo: And I assume in your answer that whatever was important to them, you also agree is appropriately to be spoken up.
Elizabeth Larrick: That’s right. Yes. Yeah. Cause we, half the battle is like, most of the time there’ll be something that we need to talk to them about. Right. Let’s say there’s a nasty email that came in, or let’s say there’s some other thing that’s in a medical record that we need to talk to them about. And that’s to say, like, we look at it.
Hey. [00:16:00] What happened? Just tell me about it. You just want to stay curious just so you get it. Because sometimes what happens is we say, Hey, look at this. And just say, Hey, it’s okay, but we don’t dive into, tell me a little bit about it. Give me some background, help me just a little bit and staying a little curious with a broad open question.
You may find a whole other side reason, or you may find either way, taking that just little side road to figure out where that foundation is can sometimes really help.
Christopher Russo: And see the way you just came across in asking those questions is, I think, a good And I think hope all you listeners will watch this.
Watch your demeanor. That’s why I think it’s important. One of your other points that you want to get to is, who does the hard cross? Because you just gave a demeanor that was very opening, trusting. I’m going to tell you all my little secrets. Can I then trust you if you’re also [00:17:00] crossing me? Now I know you won’t.
Did you just double cross me? Did you want to get all that stuff just so you can beat me up? So that’s why I do think it’s hard to play the Dr. Jekyll and Mrs. Hyde there.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, and that’s exactly right. And that’s talking about like role play. One of the biggest, I think, differences in the way that I was definitely taught how to role play.
It’s definitely part of the mantra. If you take the Keenan Trial Institute witness prep classes, you do not role play. You don’t hard cross role play your client because the way we set things up and you’re a listener and you’re really diving into, you’re getting a lot more information in these prep sessions and then turning around and like you said, you’re going to erode that trust because you are never going to use the stuff you just learned to ask those questions and, you know, using somebody else, your office, or that’s one of the nicest things about zoom is, yeah.
That’s how I do it a hundred percent. Now, as I say, okay, we’re going to do a lot of work and then we’re going to practice that way you can see it all come together [00:18:00] and we’re going to use a complete stranger, because again, that helps because they’ve never met very rarely, but occasionally someone will have met the defense lawyer with at a hearing or maybe something else, but most of the time you don’t first time.
So it’s a stranger and it’s like, okay, here we go. You’re going to meet this person and answer these questions.
Christopher Russo: And I dare say the one that we did, there was also the added bonus. I feel like I’ve seen some attorneys from the South. The Southerner approach is a little softer intro approach. Whereas I hate to admit us attorneys.
I’m from Rhode Island. The Northeast is much a little harder edged right to the point. There’s no fluff intro into the question. So you get to see a little, probably very different approach than he did in reality.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. And that was one of the things too, is whenever I asked someone to come in and role play, I’m like, Hey, here are the weaknesses and here’s the style that you need to put them through, because that’s what they’re going to, that’s, what’s going to mirror.
And most of [00:19:00] the time we try really to find the questions to be able to match up with what they’re going to hear. And occasionally we just come up with some good ones that like, they don’t get, but they’re still really good. We’re just like, oh, wow. You, how do you answer that question?
Christopher Russo: I know as you’re talking, I do have a memory of this one other time.
There was where again, before I met you, I was role playing with this client where this attorney had this really sarcastic way of asking questions. And I did my best acting job. Of how he would ask a question. He would just be like, you mean to tell me, you know, that type of guy. So we’re in the deposition and I felt bad because it was a nice lady and we’re like five minutes into the depo and he’s going full blown and I’m thinking, wow, I’m pretty good, I was just like him.
And I look over, she’s a bundle of tears. She was crying. [00:20:00] And that’s when I realized. You know what? As much as sometimes for these clients, you got to help them realize no matter how much we do it, nothing beats the reality. She still was feeling, I didn’t know then how to work with the guilt as much.
Whereas that poor woman, he had a way of making you hate yourself. And I felt so bad that I, although I thought I was doing a good job, I probably did not prep her enough, poor thing.
Elizabeth Larrick: We don’t know. We don’t know. It’s always about trying to learn. So let’s talk about just skipping role play altogether or sometimes putting role play in the wrong sequence of events.
What happens then?
Christopher Russo: Oh, see, I think that there’s a client I’m thinking of that I was actually thinking of skipping the role play with her, but no, it would have been devastating because I have other clients that I never had this opportunity because I didn’t really know about it years ago. And I just don’t feel like the deposition went nearly as well.
[00:21:00] Clients didn’t feel prepared. And weren’t able to really open up and tell their truths. Whereas I spent a lot of time with this client who, she had a bad car crash, but she had a lot of problems with her shoulders before. A car crash. And one of the issues was also there was many years of treatment and what worked really well with her.
So picture, the point I’m trying to make is between treatment and accident and actually a hearing on the case was probably close to four years. So what worked really well with her was taking those couch times to get her to go backwards in time. And she didn’t really grasp initially why, but it worked well because when she started to do it, she started to cry.
And I’m like, why are you crying? And she said, Because you bastard she [00:22:00] goes, you’re making me think about things that I buried. Um, and I said, I don’t want you to bury him. I said, I want you to, unfortunately, you may hate me, but I want those emotions because that’s what you’re trying to relate to them. If you cover it all up, but that’s not something you could just do in an hour session.
And so I just think that taking the time and obviously having clients who are willing to spend the time with you. I don’t know if you’ve come across that, but I have clients like, I don’t want to come in. Oh, okay. Sure case. So I think the pitfalls. And not doing it is you are never going to get the true value of your case because they’re never going to truly open up and talk about their case and what the truth is because they’re too wound up and worried about what’s going to happen, that those things are all just going to stay buried deep just like that client was honest with me.
They were buried and buried because also trying to [00:23:00] live because she had gone through. Two surgeries on both shoulders, the recovery, the therapy, and trying to raise a family and work. And that’s miserable. If that answers your question.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, no, it does. And I think the other thing is we get to see how people will actually perform because one thing they sit down with us and they talk and they say, Oh, I’m not going to tell them that.
And it’s okay. Then in your mind, you’re thinking, okay, wait, what are we really going to tell them? So I feel like the role play then really does give you a glimpse of. How are they going to do with a complete stranger? Yep. Tough questions. Yep. And what’s going to come out? And that also, once they have that experience, you’re like, Oh, whoa.
Now I know why we’re pairing, because I have no idea how to answer these questions.
Christopher Russo: And what you said earlier made me think of another client where see when I hear that’s not what I’m going to tell him. I don’t buy that because I don’t give anyone that kind of credit. You’re going to be [00:24:00] able to control your brain with this attorney who’s been doing a hell of a lot more than you.
This is probably your first time in a deposition. You’re going to remember, Oh, that’s someone I wasn’t supposed. And that’s the one you’re going to say, absolutely. And I’ve also, I’ve done this on a rare occasion, but I think it worked well for this client. The, one of the things that’s uncomfortable for me is having that conversation where you don’t really like the way you’re coming across.
And so for this particular client, in fact, I think I, you and I chatted about this, this was a confidential settlement. It was an anesthesia awareness case. where a client was undergoing surgery and actually awoke a little bit where she was experiencing and feeling but couldn’t move and couldn’t speak during the surgery.
Imagine everyone would think that’s horrifying. So I actually did a short direct with her and I recorded it and I played that for a focus group [00:25:00] and then I let her watch some of their comments. Where they were like definitely thought it was over the top. They thought that they’d got it They were appreciative of the horror of it, but when I then played her video, they just thought it was way over the top.
And that was immensely helpful for me to then bring her down from the stratospheres for a proper, meaningful, and ultimately settling mediation. So I think that process of it is also very useful and important.
Elizabeth Larrick: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think if you have somebody and you have the case that warrants it, and sometimes it’s a matter of you have a client, but the case expense doesn’t necessarily warrant it, then there are other ways.
And again, having that role play with another lawyer. Sometimes that’s what I tell them is listen, here’s the weakness that we’re struggling with and then I’m going to ask you to give some feedback, right? And I’m going to ask you to [00:26:00] give some hard feedback that maybe I can’t give, but because you’ve just had role play with them.
You have a fresh example and you can actually as a lawyer say, Hey, Let me give you some feedback. You did this well, but here’s what you did. And as a defense lawyer or someone that I’m, I love that answer. And let me tell you why, because it does ABC because half the battle, when we tell somebody, don’t say that, don’t do that, the brain just goes, okay.
And then it goes out the window unless this is why here’s where, like you do this one thing today, that’s like a domino effect. And here’s what it ends up happening ultimately at the end of the case. And that’s why I think having an extra personist, a stranger, and you have that fresh example, because if I give you an example where.
Oh, I had a client and they talked too much and they said all this stuff about their case and it ended up reducing their case settlement. Inevitably, [00:27:00] every single person always says, well, that’s not what I’m going to do. So that’s why having that real time, fresh example from somebody else. Okay. So you said, You took your dog for a walk for eight miles.
You have all, so this is what as a defense lawyer with my defense hat on, let me tell you what that does. And then that translates into, you don’t have any diminished value or diminished life quality of life.
Christopher Russo: Yes. And I do think it’s important, as you were saying earlier, you can’t just say, don’t say that because they’re not going to be able to take it out of their memory or put it in their memory.
Because, and I also think it’s unfair. When we do that, because again, I think that was old school. Okay. So my former partners, they were practicing in the sixties and seventies where lawyers would just, this is what you do, this is what you say. And they would listen to you. Whereas it’s, I just don’t think that’s a fair way to ask somebody to remember and be, they’re not going to properly feel prepared because they’re like, okay, you just told me not to say it, but I don’t [00:28:00] understand why.
Elizabeth Larrick: And I don’t know what else to say. So that is, then that’s my default. And the way that we practice law before is very different than the way we practice now. And that’s a result of a lot of things that are out of our control. How lawyers are viewed, how cases are viewed, how going to the courthouse is now a pain.
And it was always a pain, but Paul, it’s just a different way of practicing law. And. It’s unfortunate. And one of the common assembly blocks that I just heard from a mediator actually last week was, we’re still not getting people prepared to be present on zoom. Clients are working or they’re in their car and he’s just, they give such a terrible adjusters look at that.
And they say, they’re not serious about the file. So why would I be serious about this file? So I
Christopher Russo: don’t know. I hate to admit it. We had one, it wasn’t my client, but this man is still our firm, where a person was on, and they, so many miles, surreptitious, took a picture to send it to me. Oh my [00:29:00] god, I forgot to tell him, there he is on the Zoom smoking a cigarette.
Really? Did I have to tell you not to wear your baseball hat and smoke a cigarette during a deposition? Okay, but yeah, you’re right. That’s part of the prep that people aren’t forgetting that are, they are forgetting, I’m still trying to get people to attorneys agree to do it in person, but it’s so comfortable and lazy that they don’t want to, and it’s really hard because I actually had to fight that one about a year or so ago.
where they were trying to force my client to come to their office where, but that was, she, Zoom was made for her because she was an elderly client who they had to transport her by wheelchair in a truck. And it’s like, come on. And he actually made me file a motion to prevent it. He was not giving up. I’m like, okay, I do think that is part of it.
I still ask for him personally. I think that’s better. I don’t know yet whether or not the clients, you know, And all [00:30:00] the good feel for this. Maybe you have a comment on it. Does a zoom give them a level of Protection. It’s not as real as if in person, do they feel more intimidated in person versus zoom? I don’t know.
Elizabeth Larrick: I think it’s more, it’s that plus the formalities, right? You’re going to a foreign place. You’re going so that it’s not just, I’m sitting across, it’s also the whole formality of every, and that’s why one of the reasons why judges want all of us to come back in person, a personal hearings because they’re like, this is it.
We’re over you guys. Not showing up on time, like being super casual about this. And you guys are the lawyers. We’re going back in person hearing so that next time somebody asks and it’s no, we’re not going to make, we’ll make an exception for clients or a witness to be on zoom, but there is zero exception for a lawyer unless it’s like extreme circumstances.
Christopher Russo: Because the formality
Elizabeth Larrick: coming out of the courthouse
Christopher Russo: and lawyers are getting out of the habit of it. Let’s [00:31:00] face it. There’s courtroom etiquette that a lot of lawyers have to dust off their, the dust there to get back into the formality of it. Look, I couldn’t even speak out the word. See?
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah. Well, and that’s why I think like having the role player, people come into your office for the prep, or even if.
You’re going to do zoom and have them come into your office still to create like just a little bit of formality for them, but also there’s not going to be a zoom hiccup that’s going to make an extra panic for them, especially if they don’t, they’re not used to it. And I have some clients that are totally fine.
They’ve been using zoom for work for. Months and months and they, it’s not a big deal for them. I’m talking about just some people, it’s just easier for them. And like you said, the formality and come in for the preparation just to make sure. But I, hands down, I think having zoom to role play with different lawyers is just.
Christopher Russo: Yeah, it’s so
Elizabeth Larrick: easy now,
Christopher Russo: right? No, think about think about it. You and I are able to work together. [00:32:00] You’re in texas I’m in rhode island without zoom that ain’t happening.
Elizabeth Larrick: Yeah, and that’s why I was like, okay I need someone to who’s gonna Like role play with the client who is a tough nugget. And I need a, I need another tough nugget.
Who’s going to maybe have a little spin Northern spin for me. So then I called Christopher. I was like, okay, I it’s a different kind of case. It’s a business situation, but I still need somebody who’s going to come in and be a fresh face for him. Because again, him role playing with me was. He was going to face a male attorney.
So there’s, there was role playing.
Christopher Russo: Oh, let me ask you, I’m curious about that case. Obviously I enjoyed helping you. Would you say the actual deposition was easier or about the same level or harder?
Elizabeth Larrick: Something happened that was I would say unusual is a different person than it was anticipated. Took the deposition being a female.
So there was, yeah. So there was a little bit of different, like, Oh, cause that [00:33:00] then created a very different tone. Yeah. Overall, I think it went really well. I just think sometimes there’s things that are hard to prepare for when it’s going to be, it’s a six hour. Depot for personal injury. That’s really unusual to have one of those.
So to prepare somebody physically and mentally for basically a six hour interrogation is hard. And he had done a lot of prep just. Sitting in the chair, just going through all the stuff. So I think it went really well. And I think that I had done something a little different. You had done some role play with them.
And one of the things that I’m doing now more because we have zoomed up. Oh, so easy. I take old depositions from the lawyers and I take them and I cut them up so that we can practice with the actual questions, with the actual voice of the, and we just basically play a video. And they don’t listen to anybody else.
They have to answer it themselves, not listen to the other person. [00:34:00] So they had a lot of ways that we were all played, but also just kind of made like, okay, we have the actual voice. And we have really similar questions. Let’s give you the real version.
Christopher Russo: Yeah. Hey, can I share another thought? It was a random thought as you were talking.
Something else I’ve learned through our trials and errors, right? Like we all learn, it’s deposition breaks. I used to always rely on the client. And I’m thinking of this case. They had, she was a sweet lady. It was a trip and fall case. And so there were two lawyers cross examining her and she kept going.
And I’m like, she’s not asking for a break and she’s going in. She’s not asking her break. She’s going and she’s going. And all of a sudden, after about an hour and a half, going two hours into it, again, I’ll ask her for breaks. Now she’s wearing down, not answering, not answering good. Oh, she’s losing it.
She’s losing it. And. I ended up salvaging the case, but I walked away from that saying I am no longer [00:35:00] relying on my client to take a break. Every case, whether it be a half hour, 45 minutes, I want a break. I don’t care if you think I got a tiny, teeny little bladder. I don’t care what it is. I need a break.
I want to like a boxer, bring them back into the corner, throw some water at him, how you feel, take a break. I think that’s super, super important because I think the clients forget, even though I try and empower them, they forget that they can ask for a break and they don’t, they can’t appreciate that they’re losing it.
So I think that’s something that I remember. And another war story that I wanted to share with you that I so important, I didn’t know this back then the whole, the promise and the promises that you tell the client, look, for those who haven’t heard of it, you empower them that I don’t care if you wake up the morning of, if you are not ready for this deposition, let me know, I will cancel it.
And yes, and I’ve learned this cause I’m a real follower and I always used to be afraid of. Oh [00:36:00] my God, I don’t want a court order against me. And then I realized, who gives a shit? If the client deposition gets canceled four or five times, and what if a judge gives me a conditional order of default unless I dismiss it, unless I show up?
The jury’s never going to hear any of that. Because I remember years ago, I had this case and a guy was injured in construction and it was whether or not he ended up getting electrocuted and fell off the ladder. And we go to the deposition, and he was an old Italian guy, could have been my godfather, and his wife shows up, and she’s behind him, and he’s starting to answer questions, and she’s in behind him going, oh, oh, and the answers were horrible.
In fact, it was so bad that when the deposition was over, the defense attorney looked at me and said, I offered you too much money. You better get approval to accept it. So we go back to the And I am animatedly recreating the scene and saying how I wanted to kill [00:37:00] him. Somebody pointed to me, he was standing behind me and he sees me, walks out.
So partner says, get out there and talk to him. So I did, I said, I’m so sorry. You had to see me do that, but Oh my God, what happened? And he shook his head and said, my daughter told me she’s getting a divorce last night. It threw me for a loop. I wasn’t myself. And I’m like, Oh my God, why didn’t you tell me?
So when I first heard the promise, that person immediately came to my mind. I’m like, I should have known about the promise back then, but that requires them to, to be vulnerable and be willing to do that, whereas maybe there’s somebody like me, a rule follower, and so definitely afraid, but it’s our job to make them not afraid because all those little things like he didn’t know.
You know, that his daughter is telling him she’s going to get a divorce. Who’s going to throw him for a loop. And he was going to admit to killing Harry Carey and everyone else. Yeah.
Elizabeth Larrick: [00:38:00] You mentioned breaks and what the way that I explained to people about breaks, and this is all supported by research is like that room becomes encapsulated with the heavy energy of.
The deposition and you have to mentally take a break. Even if you think physically, I feel fine. I don’t need to use the restroom mentally. You have to take that mental break and you have to physically get up and get out of the room because you’ve got to start circulating blood. You’ve got to start breathing some regular, because again, when we get.
Little bit stress. We, we start breathing just a little bit less, just a little less. And so that’s why it’s okay. When I take a break, this is what we mean. You’ve got to physically get out of the room, even if you don’t just walk to my office and just stand up and take a cup and go back in. We’re not going to have pow wow.
It’s not, it’s just, you’ve got to mentally refresh that brain and keep going. Cause we [00:39:00] need you to be a hundred percent. here physically. Yeah. If you’ve got neck or back problems, you need to stand up. That’s another thing. And that’s what I tell people too, is we’re claiming that you have a back problem, like you don’t need to sit here until you were absolutely positively.
So miserable. You need to do what you would regularly because they think. Oh, it’s formal. We’re doing this. And that’s why Zoom kind of helps because then they’re like, Oh, okay. When I take a break, I’ll go into the kitchen. I’m like, that’s right. Get up, go to the kitchen, come back and, or go outside and pet the dog.
Christopher Russo: That is a great example. I’m glad you brought that up because I’ve had that happen before where a defense attorney will say, okay, can the record please reflect? We have been here for an hour and 45 minutes and the plaintiff has not gotten out of the seat once. Would you agree? What are you going to do?
Yeah, that’s true.
Elizabeth Larrick: But
Christopher Russo: then they could try and backtrack. I’ve been in pain for the last 45 minutes, but I haven’t said anything, but
Elizabeth Larrick: yeah.
Christopher Russo: It gets out of the bag.
Elizabeth Larrick: And that’s, and the thing about being prepared and being ready is there’s [00:40:00] a goal for deposition prep, hard stop. And. Everybody needs to know what the start point is and what the end point is and what our goal is.
And like, sometimes people just, Hey, we’re going to sit down and we’re going to talk for 30 minutes and, or 40 minutes. And I’m going to tell you what to expect. And then we’re good to go. But if you talk the whole time, you have no idea what’s in their brain, which is going to come all out of the deposition.
So having that, are you ready? I think you’re ready. Okay. You’re ready. Let’s do this. And it’s, and some people think it has to be, Oh, they look at the witness prep. Oh, I don’t, I can’t have all that time or I can’t do all those things. And again, I just look at having studied this for so many years and looked at all the brain science and all that kind of in the psychology, all of it is you can make so much.
Improvement in teaching and learning with people. If you just understand how the human brain works and just having a 30 minute planting some seeds, like quick zoom. And before you [00:41:00] have the heavy duty content, it’s going to do so much. Cause your brain will just keep working on the questions and all the things that you’ve planted.
And maybe they’ll go talk to somebody and be like, Oh, I can call up that person. Are you going to ask my spouse what they remember? And then it’s, that’s what I’m, that’s what I’m talking about.
Christopher Russo: And I, in one of the, obviously I’m still learning, I’m enjoying, but still learning that one of the hardest things I think for most lawyers is shutting their mouths.
It really is hard because they in, because I also look at it as practice for us, because of that powerful tool of silence. That people will fill in the air. Would you like to use that ourselves or in depositions? Is it people think, well, he’s not talking, so I got to keep talking and talking. So I use that one because we do want to hear, get our clients to talk more, but I also want to see how does this person respond to the silence?
So they’re going to be that cat get, Oh, let me fill in with all this extra stuff. Let me just keep dumping. But I do think that’s hard, hard thing for them to do.
Elizabeth Larrick: It is. And having that tie it all back together, having that role play [00:42:00] and having them experience somebody else do that to them. I’m just like, ask that question and look down and just give some silence to see.
And some of those people don’t even know they do it. And again, that’s that role play where it’s, I don’t think you even realize, but you got this thing you’re doing or you are talking when there’s silence. It’s just, so it’s, it’s just. They have to learn the rules of the game, but then practicing the level of understanding just exponentially increases.
Our learning curve goes up exponentially when we have the experience of something just beyond hearing about it. Christopher, you have been a wonderful guest. Is there anything else you want to share with the audience about witness prep or role play?
Christopher Russo: Hey! Anything else, hire Elizabeth, if you need to do
Elizabeth Larrick: it.
Or just call me. Christopher and I, we roundtable cases all the time where it’s like, Hey, I’ve got this. Maybe she’s difficult. Maybe she’s not. Or like, I remember that sweet little [00:43:00] old lady that you were like, I’m going to make a video. Let’s we watch it and see where we’re at. Yeah. I love all that stuff because then it gives us a chance to roundtable and say, Hey, Have Think about asking it this way, or you know what, Christopher, she’s fine.
She’s great for a 90 year old lady. Right. Yes. So awesome. Thank you again so much for coming on. It was a pleasure. Awesome. Thank you everybody for listening here today. If you enjoyed the podcast, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app. If you follow on Apple podcasts, just hit that big plus button at the top.
So we will follow and download automatically onto your phone. All right. Thank you so much until next time.
